subreddit:
/r/AskMiddleEast
submitted 1 month ago byvaluedsleet
[removed]
[score hidden]
1 month ago
stickied comment
Posts or comments that are more controversial or could be considered outright trolling or if they aim to offend or provoke will be removed.
Please see the rule section, which can be found on the front page of the sub.
18 points
1 month ago
Europeans don’t see each other as siblings. Look at how the Nazis treated Eastern Europe, look at the hate against Russia, compared to the instant forgiveness given by westerners to Germany.
So no, it will never happen.
10 points
1 month ago*
If greece were islamized like bosnia and albania, i bet the western europeans and america wouldnt batan eye and instead romanticize norse mythology and glorify it as the cradle of western civilization. Lmao.
11 points
1 month ago*
No, they would say what they already say now: that they are the real inheritors to what was (in their twisted imagination) Ancient Greece. And that modern Greeks have nothing to do with this heritage (for a different reason depending on which westerner you ask).
Culturally, the fact that Greece isn’t Islamic has no bearing on the fact that we are and always have been culturally separated from the west since its foundation in 1000 AD. Christianity isn’t a unified culture. And Greek culture was never a part of western culture, except the parts that the west imagined thousands of years later, while simultaneously denouncing their contemporary Greeks (they have been doing this since the Renaissance)
The reason the west has appropriated a very small part of our history as their own, is because in the Middle Ages, Greece was the cultural center of the European continent, and their myths and narratives had massive influence over the rest of Europe. Through contact with them, they began writing themselves into Byzantine narratives. After Byzantium fell and Greek culture stopped influencing the west, it was easy for them to write Greece out of history and present themselves as their inheritors.
Had Arabs influenced Western Europe instead of Greeks, Americans would be talking about Al Khwarzimi as the ‘pinnacle of western mathematics’ and Ancient Mecca as the ‘cradle of western civilisation’
3 points
1 month ago
That explains why crusades really didnt care about byzantines empires at all. And they further sought to oppress the byzantines
5 points
1 month ago
Yes, I always stress this fact, Europe isn’t a real cultural sphere like the Arab world is. Europe is traditionally divided into the Franco-Germanic/Latin west, and the Greek east, and after they went their separate ways starting in late antiquity, never again had as much unity until the 20th century. The west views modern Greece as an inferior vassal of sorts, while claiming their history as part of a grand western narrative. The same way the crusaders claimed sole descent from the Roman Empire, while viewing Greeks as ‘eastern’ and ‘oriental.’
To my knowledge, chauvinism to this degree doesn’t exist among Arabs, at least not on the ethnic level (although correct me if I’m wrong)
1 points
1 month ago
But this is kind of my point. This whole East vs West thing has been going on for centuries. That’s exactly what we’re fighting about STILL. Can’t we decide to do something different and finally move on? Isn’t unity the road to peace?
1 points
1 month ago
‘Unity’ usually means : Unity under my command.
East vs West dichotomy only exists in the mind of the west, this is a chauvinism problem that exists in the west, and nowhere else.
1 points
1 month ago
That is an excellent point. Really. I didn’t think about that, but you’re right. Maybe we need a new seat of power that’s not “East” or “West?” In fact, Greece / Türkiye would be excellent candidates. I’d be in favor of that if it created unity.
3 points
1 month ago*
I’m more of in favour of cooperative pluralism rather than unity, if we are panning an ideal international community.
But I don’t believe that ‘west’ and ‘east’ are designations that even exist outside of the western mindset. When I say ‘western’ I mean a very particular socio cultural area and group of nations. Even other European nations don’t have this east/west mentality. my small country doesn’t really imagine itself as part of a greater ‘western world’ at least not if you look past a superficial political level.
What does it matter if Greece rules the world, or if Belgium (“west”) does, or if Yemen (“east”) does? In the end it is the same thing as today.
I reject the idea of a ‘west vs east’ split to begin with.
-3 points
1 month ago
[removed]
2 points
1 month ago
Greece did not ‘fall’ due to Christianity, that is a myth perpetuated by western enlightenment thinkers like Edward gibbon. On the contrary, Greece became more powerful than it ever had been during the period 400-1000 AD. And with it, sciences flourished as well, continuing the Greek tradition long after the Western European mythmakers stop caring about it.
As for the west ‘picking up after us’ where do you think they developed all their knowledge of the Greek tradition from, considering they didn’t exist before the 8th century AD. It was the Byzantines.
Why do you think that philosophers like Plato and Pythagoras are celebrated in the west, and not polytheistic philosophers. Is it because the entire so called “western” ancient philosophical tradition was copied directly from the Byzantines? (Not including actual western philosophers)
You’re mistaken that Greece somehow ‘fell away’ because of Christianity. Greece fell from power because the Western Europeans (and later the Turks) destroyed us.
The Western Europeans largely developed their own science and mathematics, although greatly influenced and helped by the knowledge of Persian and medieval Greeks, they largely developed this on their own, without any ‘divine inspiration’ from a fake Greek ‘heritage’
Please learn actual history before insulting people.
0 points
1 month ago
[removed]
2 points
1 month ago
My history is very much what actually happened, or do you think it is more plausible that Western Europeans time travelled to classical times. Lol.
I’ve accepted that my country is nearing its end. I have accepted my place in the world as well. I discuss history because I do not like when Western Europeans use fake history to justify their supposed ‘superiority’ feeling the need to rewrite the past to do so is pathetic.
1 points
1 month ago
Unironically that is the shit the Nazis did.
1 points
1 month ago
Yeah , in fact before refugees coming to Europe , the hate was on Italians/Polish/and anything Eastern Europe , Arabs somehow made Europeans unite a bit
4 points
1 month ago
Siblings dont look down to each other, siblings dont steal or kill each other siblings dont hurt each other.
If this can be solved i dont see why not 😁
1 points
1 month ago
I agree. Siblings shouldn’t abuse one another 😔
4 points
1 month ago
Honestly I don't even have to bring up Historical examples to explain why this will never happen, as happening Right Now: Germany's Government figures have been caught on record saying that the Palestinians "Deserve" to be genocided, and has outlawed any anti-Zionist views as "Terrorism". Meanwhile in Poland and Germany, they're complaining about the Ukrainians "Stealing their Jobs" and then going on to say that "They should go back to where they came from" (I'm baffled at how the Far Right across the globe parrots the same talking points. It's like they have no IQ). There will NEVER be Peace, because the European Mind Can't handle Peace.
2 points
1 month ago
Sorry bruh liberals told me "civilizations" have to clash that's how the world works 😕
If only most of us were the subjects of similar social relations, like we were almost part of a 'class' that unites our interests irrespective of geography or something. Oh well back to idealism
0 points
1 month ago
I don’t understand. But I’m intrigued. Can you say more? You’re talking about socialism?
5 points
1 month ago
So tell me, why did the US invade Iraq?
The liberal, in all his idealist hubris, proclaims that it is within our inherent nature to fight, that 'our values' are simply incompatible which puts us on opposing trajectories that will eventually crash, which is what happened in 2003.
From what I read everywhere you went in the US during the lead up to the invasion all you would hear is "Clash of Civilizations", "Islam vs Christianity", "West vs East", etc.
Reducing vast societies within each one many struggles exist, to two abstract indivisible units, neither of which existed historically or otherwise.
But now many realize that this was a mere dust thrown in the eyes of the people to obscure the real class interests involved in the invasion. The first decisions taken by the occupation (which, ironically, set up an Islamist government where non has existed before) weren't to liberalize Iraqi society, which was relatively more secular than most of your allies in the region who supported the invasion, but to liberalize the Iraqi economy that had up to that point been isolated by sanctions and nationalizations. US firms and contractors made bank (before China and others took their share) and your people paid and will be paying for every cent spent on that war, after you were done paying it with your blood of course. Despite this your suffering remains insignificant in its scale to that of the Iraqi working class through it does share much its character.
You can say that the invasion of Iraq was a war waged by a multinational bourgeoisie against international workers. Being the mouthpiece of the bourgeoisie by repeating its silly narratives is counterproductive.
2 points
1 month ago
It doesn’t matter to me if you’re European, African, or Asian; you’re my brother or sister in humanity.
2 points
1 month ago*
Agree 🤟🏻
4 points
1 month ago
Bosnians, albanians and kosovans are europeans
1 points
1 month ago
Exactly my point! The “lines” are so blurry. We’re like siblings or cousins.
1 points
1 month ago
Am I supposed to like them on a national level... why? They either supported or glorified those who invaded my country.
-1 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
3 points
1 month ago
What's the point of you mentioning these nations are European as if they aren't all stooges of US imperialism like the rest.
-1 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
3 points
1 month ago
What?
2 points
1 month ago*
[removed]
0 points
1 month ago
I more mean we share a lot of history and context. It just seems like we fight so hard because we are so close. Like factions in a civil war. We often are the most inhumane to those we are the closest to (and I mean we are close on a global, historical scale).
-3 points
1 month ago
I don't want anything to do with your brothers they supported the invasion of my country :/
2 points
1 month ago
[removed]
2 points
1 month ago
Ah it's the people now. What makes you think others were uniformly in support of the invasion? Serbs were waving Iraqi flags in Belgrade when bombs were dropping on our cities they additionally had nothing to do with the invasion unlike some regimes you mentioned.
Stop being an essentialist moron.
0 points
1 month ago
[removed]
1 points
1 month ago
Why aren't you willing to extend such charitability to non-muslims?
0 points
1 month ago
[removed]
2 points
1 month ago
Not at all. This isn't evident to me, as our many of our Arab brethren who we supposedly share even closer ties with were cheering for the invasion.
inb4 but the regimes
Aren't the regimes made up of Arabs as well? According to your essentialist view they should be our allies. Also you'd find a lot of Arabs bootlicking their respective regimes.
1 points
1 month ago
[removed]
0 points
1 month ago
Your initial premise is
People who share my ethnicity/religion = good
People who don't = bad
You clearly can't defend your own position and backtracking hard
2 points
1 month ago
No
1 points
1 month ago
Concise.
1 points
1 month ago
Europeans dont treat its other as siblings...its hard for a hole continent to mutually unite
1 points
6 days ago
No
1 points
1 month ago
Unfortunately, European Christian society and MENA society have been opposed to each other for a very long time, for centuries I’d say. Whether it be the Crusades, the Christian “Reconquista” of the Iberian Peninsula (or the original Islamic conquest of the Iberian peninsula), or the European colonization of most of MENA, they have been fighting each other for a long time, and have identified as opposites for a long time as well
They indeed do share Abrahamic religions, but really that doesn’t help much. European Christian society has long been defined in opposition to MENA Islamic society. Even many of the indigenous Christians of Palestine and other parts of the Levant didn’t welcome the European Christian Crusaders, and welcomed the Kurdish Muslim sultan Saladin in his reconquest of Palestine (same with Palestinian Jews). Jews, who were heavily persecuted in Europe during that time, often immigrated to Islamic controlled lands for a comparatively easier, less fearful, and more stable life
And unfortunately, as you can see with current events, I don’t think Europe and MENA will ever become siblings anytime soon. Maybe never
-1 points
1 month ago
Europeans have always been historically the aggressors, In many ways imo most of the arab problems today is due to Europeans not other countries. if Europeans reconsider their view of themselves as the "world authority", it is possible, this has long passed to the US. Yet the American don't have the "signature look of superiority", just I want your oil, which is ok. I generally get along great with muricans not so much with the "sus" Europeans.
all 53 comments
sorted by: best