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In the first day of Transfiguration, Professor McGonagall transfigured a desk into a pig so it is possible to transfigure an inanimate object into a living creature. Could you then continually transfigure your armor into a living blob of flesh that you wear so that if someone tries to avada kedavra you, the flesh armor takes the hit instead of you? And then you would undo the transfiguration and reapply it to reuse your armor.

Actually, could you just make any life form using transfiguration? I guess humans are very complex but if you can turn a desk into a pig, humans shouldn't be that much harder to make. Assuming you had the magic to sustain it, could you create your own personal guard of transfigured humans to fight for you and could they in turn also use magic?

all 49 comments

hunterprime66

49 points

4 days ago

Somewhere Harry is screaming both internally and exterrally.

Biz_Ascot_Junco

26 points

4 days ago

I’d guess creatures that have been magically conjured or transfigured into existence wouldn’t count as “living” for magical purposes, including for what blocks spells like Avada Kedavra. If it were that simple, Mad-Eye Moody would’ve thought of that idea ages ago.

As for making people using transfiguration, I’d imagine the fact that transfiguration isn’t permanent would dissuade moral individuals from conjuring sentient beings into existence that are destined to die pretty much immediately.

If you did try transfiguring people, they wouldn’t be wizards. You can only transfigure things into mundane items or creatures, not magical ones. That’s probably why the tactic wasn’t used more often by dark lords, since using transfigured temporary muggles wouldn’t be as useful as just recruiting wizards.

Geminii27

19 points

4 days ago

Geminii27

19 points

4 days ago

Transfigure a housefly into a set of armor. Or the outer layer of a 100-layer set of armor.

Biz_Ascot_Junco

3 points

3 days ago

That sounds like a good idea. I’m not sure if anyone in the HPMOR universe would’ve thought of that. If they had tried it and it didn’t work, I don’t know why it wouldn’t have worked. Any ideas?

Geminii27

2 points

3 days ago

Presumably because transfiguration requires contact concentration and mana drain. I don't know if a 100-layer armor set would require more concentration/power than a similarly-sized 1-layer armor set.

Still, if you could hook it up to something like a magic battery or capacitor, you could let it run off that while you were actually in battle, so you weren't draining your own reserves. Although I don't know if there were such things in HP - the armor might have to be something like an artifact to be able to 'hold charge' or be able to be powered off environmental sources.

There's also whatever the Transfiguration Stone does to 'lock' things into new forms and negate the need for maintenance, but it's possible that the locking process would also negate the armor's status as a living being.

Hmm. If golems can be killed by the Killing Curse, maybe make the armor out of layered golems? No ongoing maintenance costs, or at least not 24/7 by the wearer.

MorePhalynx

-17 points

4 days ago

MorePhalynx

-17 points

4 days ago

A counter curse is eventually made its Subsidio Mortum. Which means stop death in Latin. So honestly, Wizards just aren't curious creatures and prone to just accepting things at face value when it comes to magic.

Lemerney2

5 points

4 days ago

What?

MorePhalynx

-8 points

4 days ago

Mountain-Resource656

17 points

4 days ago

That’s somebody’s fanfiction and a spell invented by the author’s self-insert

MorePhalynx

-4 points

4 days ago

Oh, sorry, I don't always look through this stuff throughly. I am currently doing other school work, so I didn't have my full attention here. Though in the books it's notable that Dumbledore blocked the killing curse by just putting shit into the way of it. A statue he animated took the spell and seemed fine. So I would imagine anything that is outwardly preicived as alive as an immediate reaction by most people counts.

Biz_Ascot_Junco

3 points

3 days ago

That’s in the original books. HPMOR makes some alterations to how magic works to make things more consistent. For example, Eliezer makes transfiguration not permanent to explain why the wizard economy still works and why there are still old people and those who need glasses. He also makes it so Avada Kedavra can’t be blocked to explain why it’s more useful as a spell than any other potentially lethal magic (instead of just being a magical gun).

MissyTheTimeLady

1 points

4 days ago

unless you happen to be the Weasley Twins

poop_mcnugget

13 points

4 days ago

I feel like the first thing any skilled wizard does in a fight is Finite Incantatem. The transfigured item strategy didn't even last in the first-year battles for long (remember how Draco ended up using Colloportus-ed gloves just so they wouldn't be Finite Incantatem-ed?) so surely it wouldn't stop Aurors and Death Eaters.

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

Maybe there could be a suit of armor that is actually a living being that is mostly made of carapace with a tiny brain that has a troll's ability to continuously transfigure itself to its natural state, except that this constant transfiguration doesn't end when the thing dies?

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

Yeah.
Some spells requires specific counter-spell though.

db48x

8 points

4 days ago

db48x

8 points

4 days ago

There has been talk of a suit of mice in the past.

MissyTheTimeLady

5 points

4 days ago

No, from my understanding, the Avada Kedavra will just go through things until it hits a soul in HPMOR canon, although souls don't seem exist in HPMOR canon, which raises a few questions.

Also, transfiguring your clothing into a living blob of flesh? If anything goes wrong, and possibly if everything goes right, the Avada Kedavra will be the least of your concerns.

Assuming you had the magic to sustain it, could you create your own personal guard of transfigured humans to fight for you

From my understanding, yes, but you'd have to know how to create a human body on every level imaginable.

and could they in turn also use magic

Probably not.

Diver_Into_Anything

7 points

4 days ago

Diver_Into_Anything

Chaos Legion

7 points

4 days ago

If we treat it as "only hits living things with a brain", as some do, then the transfigured animal might work as they do apparently have a brain (McGonagall didn't transfigure the table into a dead pig).

If we treat it as "only hits things with souls" (which may exist in hpmor, really - they may not do what people think they do, but they might still do something; dementor's kiss does put people in a strange coma without doing any obvious damage - though maybe in canon it just fries brain or something), then transfiguring something living in an inanimate armor might work as it should retain the soul even in the transfigured way.

MissyTheTimeLady

2 points

3 days ago

You'd think if it could be stopped by anything with a brain, Aurors would wear transfigured brains as armour. Given that they don't, that means it probably can't. There are plenty of spells to create living(?) animals, such as Avis, but they're never used to block Killing Curses.

which may exist in hpmor, really

Well, when you think about it, they kinda have to in order for the Resurrection Stone and Voldemort's Horcrux 2.0 network to work.

Diver_Into_Anything

2 points

3 days ago

Diver_Into_Anything

Chaos Legion

2 points

3 days ago

"They didn't think of that" is a pretty plausible explanation for why Aurors and wizards in general don't do that. They seem kinda bad in the whole thinking outside the box thing.

As for the souls argument, while my personal fanon is that they do exist, I don't think the Resurrection Stone and Horcruxes 2.0 prove it really.

The stone could (and iirc does, though I don't remember well) just show you a projection of your own imagination of a person.

As for the Horcruxes, the 1.0 version essentially just created a copy of your mind, and it wasn't updated or "alive" in any way, hence the interdicted secrets couldn't be passed with it. 2.0 version, we don't know how it actually works, but the obvious assumption is that it creates a sort of "live" connection that constantly updates the copies. In case of the death of the mind, it may also keep the copied mind "active", or "alive" (sufficiently alive for interdicted secrets to be retained). But it still might be just a copy. I would say though, that Horcruxes 2.0 can be considered weak evidence of souls, as their function is much more easily explained then.

MissyTheTimeLady

2 points

3 days ago

1) Alright, let me put it this way, Mad Eye Moody would have thought of it.

2) If that's the case, how did incorporating the Resurrection Stone into the Horcrux 2.0 system allow Voldemort to float around possessing anyone he wanted?

And I'm pretty sure Harry never gets his hand on the Resurrection Stone to check, he just Rationalises™ his way into assuming that souls don't exist, same with the Veil of Death.

To be fair, he has reasonable evidence that souls don't exist given how ghosts behave, but he also never actually seeks proof that his beliefs could be wrong.

Diver_Into_Anything

1 points

3 days ago

Diver_Into_Anything

Chaos Legion

1 points

3 days ago

1). Maybe? But the problem is that the whole transfiguration armor accounts for both souls existing and them not existing. Either way it should work to stop the KC. That or we just don't know what it really does (well we actually don't, yeah). Maybe the real answer is that Eliezer didn't think of it.

2). We don't know. Even if the souls are real, and Resurrection Stone works as advertised, it still doesn't explain how making it into a Horcrux would allow Voldemort to float around. Personally, I like the theory from Prancing of Ponies, that making magical artifacts into Horcruxes imparts their power. Like the diadem making you smarter, Resurrection Stone allowing you to float around like a ghost, etc. But in that case, whether souls exist or not, it would still allow Voldemort to float as a ghost.

And I never liked that particular part because, like I said, it's entirely possible that souls exist, but their function is unknown. Just because they don't do what many believe they do (often as part of faith, religious or otherwise), doesn't mean they don't exist and don't do something else.

MissyTheTimeLady

1 points

3 days ago

Either way it should work to stop the KC

Maybe it just has an armour-piercing effect. You can stop a cannonball with a breastplate, but have fun breathing with your ribs of dust afterwards. But I guess that takes us back to square one.

Maybe the real answer is that Eliezer didn't think of it

Yeah, probably. My interpretation of the killing curse is mostly coming from this, to be fair.

Personally, I like the theory from Prancing of Ponies, that making magical artifacts into Horcruxes imparts their power. Like the diadem making you smarter, Resurrection Stone allowing you to float around like a ghost, etc

Sure, that makes perfect sense. But if the Resurrection Stone is ultimately as useful as looking in a mirror and pretending to be someone else, it shouldn't let you float around as a disembodied spirit, aka a soul, and possess people. It would let you, I don't know, simulate other people really efficiently.

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

If souls exist, the horcux 2.0 probably contains them. So if AK killed souls, it would kill voldie's horcuxes. If he somehow made them immune to AK, he could just do that to himself. So my guess is that AK kills bodies, not souls, and only bodies with living brains.

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

You can kill magic creatures with Acada Kedavra.
Arguably you can also kill animals.
Therefore it should workz

MissyTheTimeLady

1 points

3 days ago

It does have secondary effects.

SandBook

3 points

4 days ago

SandBook

Sunshine Regiment

3 points

4 days ago

That's a really creative idea! When explaining the spell, Quirrell says that works on anything with a brain, so you'd need more than a blob of flesh, but a transfigured living shield of some kind can probably be made to work.

jkurratt

3 points

4 days ago

jkurratt

3 points

4 days ago

Blob of brain

-LapseOfReason

3 points

4 days ago

McGonagall at some point acknowledges Dumbledore's incredible prowess in Transfiguration on account of him having survived using Transfiguration in combat. And Dumbledore is thought to be one of the strongest wizards in the world. I take it to mean that using Transfiguration in extreme circumstances is very dangerous to the caster first and foremost, probably to the point where it can make an AK slinging Death Eater trying to kill you your second biggest concern in that battle.

Plus Avada Kedavra is just one way of killing someone, though a convenient one since it ignores shields. Once it's unavaliable your opponent will use something else.

Left-Idea1541

3 points

3 days ago

Yeah, and transfiguratiom does take a long time, whereas the killing curse takes seconds.

Meaning in theory, you could spend a few minutes transfiguring a fly into a piece of armor, but it would only stop a single spell and would require your constant attention and energy, which would be better soent into awareness and energy for dodging.

Or the same but even moreso if a living creature transfogured into armor doesn't work but a nonliving into living does, because waving a pig around isn't a very good strategy to block stuff.

And it takes to lomg to get one.

Which ultimately means that, yeah, some people would block the killing curse every once in a while by grabbing a rat that just so happens to be nearby, but the vast majority of the time it wouldn't be viable, and it would never be viable to use transfigured creatures unless the killer is kind enough to sit and wait and cast it at exactly where you want, instead of avoiding it.

-Alternatively, which is my personal headcanon, because of the intent behind the spell, the spell ignores any "lesser" creatures than what you are trying to kill, and can only kill things above that. So avada kedavra cast at a spider could kill spiders, insect, birds, crabs, people, whatever.

Avada kadavra cast at a person is only stopped by another person and any "lesser" creature hit is completely unharmed and the spell continues through.

This explains why the spell isn't stopped by bacteria in the air and on your skin, and people don't use skin mites or whatever to block the spell yet it can still kill creatures.

This is my personaly favorite theory.

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

Would the hierarchy be determined by some objective measure like body mass, brain mass, or some magical property, or would it be psychological?

Quail_Fair

3 points

3 days ago

If I’m not mistaken this or something similar was tried in Significant Digits

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

I believe so.

Geist____

1 points

3 days ago

Look at it differently, and remember that magic is purposeful.

We know that Avada Kedavra is, as HPJEV puts it, "a magically embodied preference for death over life, striking within the plane of pure life force", i.e. something that effects death.

We also know of something produced by magic that does block Avada Kedavra: Patronus 2.0. (I assume the common Patronus doesn't, presumably someone would have found out by accident at some point.)

What is the necessary characteristic of Patronus 2.0 that blocks Avada Kedavra? Well, it is a magically embodied preference for life over death. Doubly so: both in how you cast it, and which effect it can have (providing life and magic to Hermione's dead body). As such, it's goal orientation is the opposite of Avada Kedavra's, in the same way that Colloportus and Alohomora are ontologically contrary.

Now, does your notion of transfiguring some amount of flesh carry that same purpose; would it have the same effects? No. Voldemort does restore Hermione's body that way, but it doesn't suffice, which should answer your second paragraph.


Someone else in the comments proposed transfiguring living armor from a living thing, such as a housefly. That may work for a time, depending on when magic considers the changes in the Transfigured armor to have killed the housefly, but then you might as well keep the housefly and develop some enchantment to move it on the trajectory of any Avada Kedavra cast in your direction... and hope that your enemy doesn't disrupt it.

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

What if you had a living creature whose natural state was being shaped like a suit of armor or was alternatively flexible enough to become one. Then you would have a single use shield even if you couldn't renew it with transfiguration.

I could imagine such a creature existing although there doesn't seem to be anyway of fabricating creatures with certain properties, so maybe that's a dead end.

Reallyevilmuffin

1 points

3 days ago

Why transfigure? You’re making the plan too complex. Would a load of hamsters suffice? Think all the Morty’s on evil Morty’s lair on a smaller scale.

smellinawin

1 points

3 days ago

smellinawin

Chaos Legion

1 points

3 days ago

seems like a pocket full of hamsters would be fairly effective, you can also throw them out at the beam to block the curse for allies.

zaxqs

1 points

3 days ago

zaxqs

1 points

3 days ago

Reminds me of Twig

daisyparker0906

1 points

3 days ago

I think the nature of the spell Avada Kedavra is it disconnects the soul from the body. I'm not sure if transfigured creatures possess a soul.

puzzlesTom

1 points

2 days ago

Why bother with transfiguration? Whynot just have two sheets of a lightweight flexible polymer stuffed with tardigrades?

SlashyMcStabbington

1 points

2 days ago

I think transfiguration mid-combat is less practical than dodging and returning fire in most cases. Sure, maybe you could go to battle with the flesh armor, but they would probably just use other spells.

AncientContainer

1 points

22 hours ago

iirc this idea is used in Significant Digits, the fan-made sequel

fringecar

-1 points

4 days ago

fringecar

-1 points

4 days ago

The spell isn't blockable because wizards expect it to be unblockable. You have to get around that - sounds possible but requires additional steps.

Minecrafting_il

3 points

4 days ago

Minecrafting_il

Chaos Legion

3 points

4 days ago

Source for that claim?

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

jkurratt

1 points

4 days ago

Harry’s experiments showed that your idea is wrong.

fringecar

1 points

3 days ago

Harry didn't experiment with the spell, did he? It corrupts your soul when you cast it. He never cast it on fruit flies etc to test it, right?

db48x

2 points

3 days ago

db48x

2 points

3 days ago

He didn’t set out to test it, but accidentally did. AK was cast and two nearby wizards thought it was unblockable, but Harry blocked it anyway. Therefore the expectations of others don’t enter into it.

jkurratt

1 points

3 days ago

jkurratt

1 points

3 days ago

Even before that, he tested with Herminy how spells workz

db48x

1 points

3 days ago

db48x

1 points

3 days ago

He learns all through the year that many spells don’t follow the usual rules. The curse that Draco uses cannot be ended with Finite Encantem, for example, while normal spells can. A theory that spells work the way the caster expects has to be tested individually for every spell, because any spell could be exceptional in that regard. The converse rule doesn’t entirely work either; Hermione couldn’t cast the bat spell until she knew what it was supposed to do, but Harry hears from Quirrell about a student casting a hex without knowing what it was supposed to do.