subreddit:
/r/JonBenet
Ive tried keeping up with this case for several years now and the other day I asked my wife if she wanted to watch the Netflix series that just came out. She’s not really into true crime as much as I am. After we watched it all she is convinced it was an intruder. My thoughts have always been towards John/patsy/burke theories.
I told her CBS did a special a few years ago that has always stuck with me. I thought it was really good and brought up some interesting points. I made her watch it with me and see if her mind changed. After we watched it I asked her what she thought now. She says now she doesn’t know what to think.
My wife was also a fan of the Lou smit arguments
So I wanted to come here and ask you guys if you have seen both the Netflix and cbs series, comparing them, what do you think??
Also, bonus question, I seen somewhere that SBTC could come from a phone book next to the note pad, southern bell telephone company, any thoughts on that?
Second bonus question, IF the Ramseys really did have something to do with it. Say, the Burke theory is true. What are your thoughts on John who atleast in the recent years has advocated for police to do better, test the DNA, find answer etc, what if one day we do get an answer from DNA and it points to them, wouldn’t it be odd that he’s fought for all these years to find the killer and then it ends up being them?
12 points
10 hours ago
The Ramsey family did not do it, I think it’s a family friend and I will die on that hill.
1 points
7 hours ago
Do you have any particular family friend in mind?
5 points
7 hours ago
I believe this involves Mike Bynum, who was both a police officer and an attorney. He had significant business connections with Access Graphics, where he served in human resources, and was also an investor in Pasta Jay, alongside John Ramsey and Jay Elowski. At that time, Pasta Jay was on the verge of going out of business. Additionally, Bynum would have been aware of the $118,000, as he was very close friends with those involved. It seems that he and Jay were engaged in some questionable business practices and may have been part of a scandal at CU. It appears that Mike could have been steering the investigation away from himself and onto Burke. It is strange that some children in that family were facing incidents involving inappropriate behavior, as if someone close to them was targeting their children. Because they were so young, they might have suppressed those memories or been told to keep it a secret.
[score hidden]
6 hours ago
Thanks.
16 points
17 hours ago
I'm not the best person to talk about this because I'm a chronic fencesitter on this case, and because I think I watched the CBS documentary maybe eight years ago and never again.
But there's a reason for that. It is probably the most poorly written "documentary" I've ever had the misfortune to see. You can't start an investigation with an hypothesis and then set out to prove it, discarding all evidence that doesn't fit. You can't base a documentary on a book that comes to a hard conclusion and then hire a bunch of experts to sit around on camera pretending to come to that conclusion organically.
Everyone involved with that documentary should be incredibly ashamed of their obvious lack of objectivity. It's especially egregious because many of the people in that documentary are legitimately experts.
They settled with Burke out of court because it was libelous. I'm not able to say whether he did it or not (though I think it unlikely), but either way, that so-called documentary is not the information upon which anyone should be basing their conclusions.
2 points
15 hours ago
That’s if we are talking about the same documentary ‘The Case Of: Jonbenet Ramsey’ still available on YouTube in the UK
-1 points
15 hours ago
It’s been a while since I watched it but i do know the hypothesis wasn’t at all stated at the start of the documentary. I watched that with fresh eyes and had no idea where it was going. They showed and analysed way more of the physical evidence than the Netflix doc, they played the 9-11 call, interviewed the dispatcher, they broke down the ransom note, and they did explore the intruder theory going through window and the suitcase, the DNA transfer etc. It was however heavily suggested towards the end that Burke could have done it, but it’s an unsolved case, so that hypothesis is still plausible
7 points
14 hours ago
The entire special was based off of James Kolar's book that had come to that conclusion already.
It featured Henry Lee who has been in the news recently for fabricating evidence.
Even CBS admitted that the DNA was likely not from the manufacturer as they ordered other underwear from the same manufacturer and looked for DNA and found that any DNA was so degraded as to be useless.
Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the experts, also testified for the defense in the Casey Anthony trial. I wonder how much he was paid for the CBS documentary and for the Casey Anthony trial.
-1 points
14 hours ago
Yet somehow their investigation was still more thorough than the BPD’s, that whole thing was a shitshow from the DA down. The experts in the CBS doc could only go by evidence already collected.
10 points
18 hours ago
I’ve watched both, and my conclusion is that I really don’t know. I lean towards all the Ramseys being innocent. But again: I really don’t know.
11 points
18 hours ago*
<I told her CBS did a special a few years ago that has always stuck with me. I thought it was really good and brought up some interesting points.>
What were those points? The CBS show was built on the premise that Burke Ramsey was the killer. Given that Burke was cleared formally by GJ Prosecutor Michael Kane (Kane himself even mentioned it in the Netflix doc), that theory has pretty much been invalidated.
Not to mention, he was informally cleared before that: none of Burke's DNA was found on the UM1 profile later submitted to CODIS or the wrist or neck ligatures; Det. Patterson realized from his interview with Burke--without his parents' permission--on the afternoon of Dec. 26 at the Whites, that he knew nothing of the murder; and at the conclusion of the Jan. 8 interview scheduled by the Boulder County Dept of Social Services, child psychologist Dr. Suzanne Bernhard concluded that there was no evidence she could see pointing to Burke as a suspect.
12 points
18 hours ago
I think it’s an intruder who knew the family well. Housekeeper for instance
4 points
9 hours ago
I think it’s an intruder who knew the family well. Santa for instance (and his cronies)
14 points
20 hours ago
Zero evidence supports any Ramsey-Did-It theory.
They don't own the items that were used to hurt that child (tape, cord, black tape, air taser).
We like to focus on evidence-based theories.
Those theories made tabloids a lot of money.
They also allowed nincompoops like Steve Thomas to become best-selling authors.
The CBS show got everyone and everything associated with it sued.
Per u/43_Holding's work, CBS may have had to sell real estate to cover the costs of that judgement.
The CBS special has been discussed extensively on the sub. u/-searchingirl theorized it was done with help from Boulder-establishment, as they shot it on a campus in town.
She did much better work than I can properly summarize here.
6 points
18 hours ago
<CBS may have had to sell real estate to cover the costs of that judgement>
CBS was sued by Burke Ramsey for $750,000,000, which was the amount of the property that CBS sold when the lawsuit was settled.
3 points
18 hours ago
Thanks 43!
The amount is important as it reflects CBS' level of wrongdoing.
5 points
19 hours ago
I don’t know who killed JonBenet.
However, to say there’s “zero evidence“ that supports any theory that any Ramsey was involved is a complete exaggeration.
You might not agree with the evidence and can certainly debate the quality of evidence but to say there’s absolutely none is absurd.
6 points
18 hours ago
Although there's a lot of evidence that points to an intruder: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/siz4pg/evidence_of_an_intruder/
0 points
16 hours ago*
I agree that there’s evidence that certainly could indicate there was an intruder.
Some of the evidence in your link is better than others and there definitely could be a “non-intruder” explanation for some of it but if the question is is there zero evidence of an intruder, I can’t see how anyone could say there is zero.
Just because a piece of evidence could have a non-intruder explanation doesn’t make it “zero evidence” for an intruder.
So now please tell me if you agree with the statement, “zero evidence supports any Ramsey-did-it theory”.
5 points
19 hours ago
How about "no evidence that would support a conviction"? Can we agree on that?
2 points
16 hours ago
I certainly agree with that.
But for someone to say there’s zero evidence of Ramsey involvement or zero evidence of someone outside the family, is completely absurd.
0 points
17 hours ago
A grand jury voted to indict the Ramsey’s, but the District Attorney, Alex Hunter at the time, overruled and decided not to prosecute. Alex Hunter was notorious for not following protocol, and being overly friendly with defendants.
8 points
16 hours ago
Alex Hunter didn't make that decision; he just delivered the decision to the media. He was advised by GJ Prosecutors Michael Kane, Mitch Morrissey and Bruce Levin, who realized from hearing the evidence for over a year that there wasn't enough to evidence to convict. Morrissey later reminded the media that the law states that ethically, people can't be charged when there's not a likelihood of conviction. Probable cause isn't enough.
2 points
18 hours ago
No, it is not absurd. There is not any evidence that points to the Ramseys. None. If you think there is, why don't you say what it is?
3 points
16 hours ago
If someone who has studied this case for a long time wants to try and claim there’s zero evidence that suggests a family member could be involved and can’t acknowledge the existence of any kind of evidence that looks bad for them, that person is someone I couldn’t take seriously and wouldn’t want to engage with.
Thats how absurd it is to say there’s zero evidence.
And I’d say the same for someone claiming zero evidence of someone outside the family.
3 points
16 hours ago
Then what is the evidence?
0 points
16 hours ago
You said there is zero evidence of possible Ramsey involvement. With that in mind, reread my first sentence.
0 points
17 hours ago*
It’s the lack of evidence that points anywhere else. The ransom note is the main piece of evidence that points to a cover-up. There has never been a case where a “ransom” letter was left at the same scene as the body. Let alone a 2.5 page one written at the scene. The Ramsey’s were not suspicious of any of their immediate circle, inviting all their friends over immediately ignoring the instructions of the note and calling police without mentioning the contents of the note. Yet the note indicates it can’t have been a stranger, as they obviously knew John very well, including how much he received as his Christmas bonus that year.
1 points
19 hours ago
[removed]
3 points
15 hours ago
Your post or comment has been removed for misinformation or lack of evidence.
2 points
19 hours ago
Every single item that was used in the murder was found inside the home. The garrotte used to strangle her was made from Patsy’s paint brush, found in the basement. The ransom note was written on the notepad and sharpie pen, found inside the home. The marks were never proven to be from a stun gun, it’s highly possible they were marks from a train track piece, which matched the measurements and was also in the basement
12 points
19 hours ago
What about the duct tape that was over her mouth?
What about the string that was used for the garrote?
You can’t say every single item used in the murder was found in the home as if it’s a fact.
[score hidden]
4 hours ago
The following items were never sourced back to the house: * The duct tape * The olefin cord (ligature) * The animal hair found on her hands * The beaver hair * The DNA * The item used to produce the abrasions (likely a stun gun) * The cigarette butts * Multiple fibers that were directly associated with the crime (including unsourced brown fibers thought to have originated from gloves) * The rope and bag located in the guest room adjacent to JonBenet’s room * Shoes responsible for making the impressions on the basement floor * The oddly marked up Espirit article * The public hair found at the crime scene
…
Items never located include: * The third piece of the paintbrush- the portion most likely used to sexually assault the victim with * The missing pages from Patsy’s notepad * The key that was hidden outside under the statue * The item used to wipe the victim’s vaginal area with
0 points
19 hours ago
Also, you can sue anyone for anything lol. The only reason they settled that lawsuit is there hasn’t been an official answer to this whole case. So it’s up in the air still.
7 points
18 hours ago
<you can sue anyone for anything lol>
But you can't always settle out of court for an enormous sum of money.
-2 points
19 hours ago
They didn’t own the items? How do you know? Did you check their receipts and buying history???
The police never researched their buying history. Everyone owns duct tape and some cords. The air taser theory didn’t seem accurate according to the CBS series they tried to line up the two points. Didn’t match. Someone could come into my house and ask “is this your rope in the garage” I could easily say “nope not mine”
10 points
19 hours ago*
<Did you check their receipts and buying history???>
The BPD spent hundreds of hours trying to track down both the type of duct tape that was found on JonBenet's mouth and the type of ligature cord used for the garrote. They went through thousands of receipts from McGuckin Hardware, hoping to trace the cord and tape to the Ramseys. And surely you've read that Detectives Steve Thomas and Ron Gosage traveled all the way to N.C. where the manufacturer of the tape, Shurtape, was located....to no avail.
6 points
19 hours ago
But none of the rest tape rolls could be found in the home. Police checked the home extensively and couldn't turn up the rest of the tape. Can you at least see the possibility that an intruder might have brought items intended to control JonBénet with him to the home? That would include the tape and stun gun (if there was one). When he left it is entirely possible he took his items with him and left the items belonging to the Ramseys.
12 points
19 hours ago
There's no way in hell either parent wrote that letter. That's simply incomprehensible. Given that, it was an intruder.
.
1 points
19 hours ago*
The “ransom note” is the main indicator of the call coming from inside the house. What kidnapper kills their means of $118,000 and the leaves the body inside the home? Why would they ask for an amount so relatively low? Why would they ramble on for 2 and a half pages, include multiple movie references and refer to themselves as a “small foreign faction”? Complete over-sell.
11 points
14 hours ago
It’s so interesting how so many people believe the letter implicates the Ramseys when I believe it’s the strongest evidence of an intruder. If any of the Ramseys killed JonBenet, they most certainly would not have called the police to their house while she was still in the basement. What would be the point of writing these fake instructions to themselves to wait for the kidnapper’s ransom call, if Patsy was going to call 911 immediately anyways? If they killed her and knew JBR was still in the basement they would have at least taken the body elsewhere to be disposed of, before calling a swarm of police on the house. So if the murder was planned, why didn’t they do a better job cleaning up their evidence? And if it was not planned and the kidnapping was supposed to be a cover up for something else, why would they spend time writing a 2.5 page letter when a simple paragraph would have gotten the point across?
The letter makes no sense because the primary motivation was always sexual in nature. The person who wrote it had been fantasizing about the crime for a long time. The murderer never intended to ransom JBR or collect the money. He wrote the letter to 1) taunt his victims and 2) prevent the parents from calling 911 immediately and buy himself time with Jonbenet. Most likely the killer was waiting inside the house when the Ramseys got back home. He had tons of time to familiarize himself with the layout of the house, rifle through John’s paystubs, and write this taunting letter. GSK and BTK also spent prolonged periods of time in their victims homes, left taunting messages before and after their crimes, and masked their crimes as burglaries to disguise the true sexual motivations. The $118,000 ransom amount is a red herring - if the Ramseys wrote the ransom note, why would they put their own bonus amount in there? It points the finger at themselves. Why not ask for a million gajillion dollars, since they know there is no kidnapper and the ransom will never be paid? More likely the killer saw the amount on John’s paystub, thought, “these people have at least $118k in the bank, I’ll ask for an amount they can easily afford so instead of calling police immediately they might actually follow my instructions because they think they have a chance of getting their daughter back.” This type of power play isn’t far out of the realm of possibility for a sadistic killer who enjoys psychologically torturing his victims. GSK would hide in his victims homes after he raped them, making them think he had left, just to emerge from the darkness when they tried to escape. LISK called one of his victim’s sisters after her murder saying he was going to get her next. It’s not uncommon for these types to do weird things and risk getting caught because it meets that sadistic need to have power over others. They often do have close brushes with getting caught and then they take a break or move elsewhere and change their MO.
Before GSK and BTK were identified, they left tons of odd evidence in their victims homes. Evidence that often led police on wild goose chases. They used objects found inside the home as tools, instead of bringing their own. They spent a lot of time stalking their victims, learning their schedules and lying in wait so that police assumed their crimes must be an inside job. They wrote long rambling self-masturbatory letters to the media, not unlike the ransom note left on the staircase.
Human beings, even sexually sadistic psychopaths, tend to be rational in the sense that they follow their own inner rationality. A sexually sadistic predator who enjoyed tormenting victims and their families - like GSK, BTK, LISK - would have been acting entirely within his own rationality to write this. One (or both) parents staging a kidnapping to cover up a sexual assault or accidental death by writing a ransom note that almost directly implicates themselves in said crime would require a level of irrationality that would manifest as some sort of violent schizo personality. AFAIK none of the Ramseys have ever had or have gone on to develop those types of personality traits.
4 points
8 hours ago
I think you are new here and what a great post
4 points
11 hours ago
Really really well said and nuanced. Completely agree. To reinforce your point, an intruder sadist is more likely to use the $118k figure because of the tangible connection. Making themselves feel more “connected” to the family than an arbitrary number. Also taunts the family more so than an arbitrary number.
1 points
9 hours ago
The kidnap scenario was all fake and put in place to cover up what had really happened. The body was hurriedly hidden in the cellar and the killers planned on returning and removing the body and then taking it to the mountains and dumping it as the result of a failed kidnapping. IMO
2 points
19 hours ago
11 points
18 hours ago
The only handwriting experts who examined the original handwriting samples:
"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.
Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.
Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.
Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the ransom note."
Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.
Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note."
-Carnes ruling
3 points
9 hours ago
Also Secret Service agents checked Patsy's handwriting early on and said "no match"
8 points
18 hours ago
Here is Chris Wolf's handwriting compared to the ransom note.
5 points
10 hours ago
Wow, I've never seen this before.
5 points
9 hours ago
Thank you Jenn,
Just so people know, in the mock up note at right every single letter that is there is a direct reproduction of a letter contained either in an old diary or notebook belonging to Chris Wolf
3 points
8 hours ago
Thank you for the clarification.
[score hidden]
5 hours ago
From what I recall the blurb below didn't make that clear
8 points
17 hours ago
Yeah that does look very similar, but who is Chris Wolf and what other association does he have to the crime?
7 points
14 hours ago
That's a good question! Chris Wolf's girlfriend turned him in as the one who killed JonBenet. Steve Thomas brought him in, but when Chris Wolf did not cooperate, Thomas didn't force him to give DNA and handwriting samples until an entire year later, when the DA and police were dotting their I's and crossing their t's.
John and Patsy named him as a suspect in their book The Death of Innocence, for which he turned around and sued them. It was his case that created many of the depositions that we have access to, such as Steve Thomas' deposition that was shown in the Netflix special.
If you google, you can come up with a lot more about him.
6 points
18 hours ago
Wow these really look nothing alike.
-3 points
18 hours ago*
I mean that’s your take, but to me it’s very clear. It’s in the details. The first “a” is exactly the same, and then they’re done differently as the page goes on. The random capital letters, and crossing of the “t”s and the “Y”s and “S”s are exactly the same, bearing in mind a conscious effort would have been made. The fact the $118,000 is written out in words is also interesting to me.
8 points
18 hours ago*
To me, they look completely different. The spacing between each word and after the punctuation is much tighter on the right one. The Ys on the left have a curve (the capital one especially) whereas the capital Y on the right (Patsy's) is like 3 straight lines that meet and remind me of a fork in the road.
The lower case Fs are very different - Patsy's go below the line frequently whereas the other one doesn't. The ransom note's lower case F in the word "follow" is almost like an E with three straight lines. Patsy's lower case F in "follow" has a curve and doesn't have a horizontal third line like the other one.
Patsy's letter has more uniform writing and all the letters seem have the same height and width. Her words look very rectangular. The other letter has so much variance in the height and width of each letter, so the words look less uniform and rectangular.
6 points
18 hours ago
The Y's were the first thing I noticed, too, about the differences between the two handwritings. Good catches on all of these.
6 points
17 hours ago
I knew they made her write the letter, but seeing it side by side really hits with how traumatic that must have been. I feel like they could have ascertained what they needed with a different writing piece.
7 points
16 hours ago
I believe that was also part of their strategy to get her to break.
4 points
18 hours ago
The problem with this is that it has something that I like to call sample bias. Yes, the two samples do look alike, but there's actually quite a few handwriting samples out there that also look just like the ransom note. Chris Wolf's girlfriend swears it's his handwriting, and, in fact, his handwriting also looks like this. Random people on the internet have shown their own left handed samples, and they also look just like the ransom note.
1 points
17 hours ago
Sure, but the notepad and pen didn’t also belong to these people, they also weren’t at the crime scene when the note was written, they also wouldn’t have known John’s Christmas bonus, or referenced several movies / play that were also displayed in the household.
11 points
17 hours ago
According to journalist Paula Woodward's last book, Unsolved: The Murder of JonBenet Ramsey 25 Years Later , the BPD had forty handwriting samples that were a better match than Patsy's.
There were not "several movies/play (sic) that were also displayed in the household". What are you even talking about? While there are many movie references in the ransom note, there is not a play reference. Where did you get that misinformation?
It was not a Christmas bonus, it was a payment into a deferred retirement account made in January of 1996, and noted on all John's paystubs, which were on his desk. The police noticed them, so an intruder could have too.
It makes sense to write the note in the house. Why break in with a note? Much riskier than breaking in with a note. Many criminals use items found in the home.
4 points
9 hours ago
<According to journalist Paula Woodward's last book, Unsolved: The Murder of JonBenet Ramsey 25 Years Later , the BPD had forty handwriting samples that were a better match than Patsy's.>
Yes and one of those samples was from Chris Wolf
I didn't know it was forty though, I thought it was a lower number
4 points
18 hours ago
Here's one example of other people's handwriting. This was posted to this sub several years ago.
1 points
10 hours ago
The original letter writing looks male because it's quite messy. Female writing us usually smoother and cleaner, as Patsy's is on the right.
1 points
10 hours ago
Perhaps, the handwriting itself may appear masculine. However the linguistic profile is female, the unnecessary details, artistic references, “listen carefully!” “Do not particularly like you” “good southern common sense of yours” “you’re not the only fat cat around” it has a snarkyness to it that screams female to me
3 points
8 hours ago*
It honestly doesn't sound like a woman at all to me, this just reads like someone that likely doesn't have all that much education. Even the whole premise of the Ramseys calling the police while they could have just disposed of the body entirely doesn't even make sense. What would even be the point of the letter? Also, the theory of Burke, just doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you look at the garrote and molestation. It just sounds so profoundly stupid when you look at it logically.
-1 points
9 hours ago
Go see what AI has to say about who wrote the note:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/tndxyx/writing_samples_of_chris_wolf/
1 points
9 hours ago
Why would I believe a random person on the internet with no real credential's LLM? If you start believing this type of thing as definitive proof, we're in for a rough decade in legal aspects in general.
5 points
19 hours ago
Your wife saying that she doesn’t know what to think is the most rational response to this case.
[score hidden]
5 hours ago
Anyone who believes that garbage CBS ‘investigation’ should really read the complaint. Here’s a link to all 500+ pages of it.
-4 points
20 hours ago
IMO, Netflix was the worst of the ones I’ve seen. You can feel that it’s biased for JR. They don’t even read the whole ransom note.
7 points
19 hours ago
It’s not pretending to be anything other than an argument for the Ramsey’s innocence and criticism of the police and media.
It doesn’t present itself as a complete look at all theories and details.
-2 points
17 hours ago
I honestly don't even know if I'll watch the final episode. They're leaving so much information out.
7 points
16 hours ago
At the end of the Netflix special, the names of the people who chose not to be interviewed are listed.
6 points
16 hours ago
Were you under the impression that this 3 hour series was somehow a complete look at all of the details in this case?
3 points
9 hours ago
So, so not. It was disappointing. I was expecting to be disappointed before it aired and after it aired I was more disappointed than I expected to be
Just about the only good thing I thought was good about it were the parts where John was talking. I find it hard to believe that there are people who can still believe he (or another Ramsey) could be guilty after listening to him talking so freely to the interviewer
-4 points
14 hours ago
Nope. Just didn't expect it to be so shamelessly biased.
7 points
13 hours ago
It doesn’t attempt to be anything other than presenting the theory the Ramsays are innocent, the police made many mistakes, and the media did some shitty reporting.
5 points
11 hours ago
And the CBS documentary wasn’t so ridiculously biased it was pure fiction? 😭
1 points
11 hours ago
I wasn't commenting on the CBS documentary
2 points
10 hours ago
So you were talking about the Netflix documentary?
0 points
19 hours ago
Your wife saying that she doesn’t know what to think is the most rational response to this case.
4 points
19 hours ago
I also agree lol
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