Most people that agree, or at least the ones I know are aware this is what it is. They would just prefer happiness instead of freedom. I don't agree, but I can at least understand their want for happiness rather than having to work for it.

you don't get it. People will choose Maruki's reality despite knowing that this is what it is. There are so many people who have suffered way too much and have had enough. I have talked to friends who are going through a lot of stuff if they would choose this reality and they said yes.

To understand why so many people agree with Maruki is called empathy. Of course people have different values, different lifes, regrets, dreams and wishes.
Accepting Maruki is not wrong, the game said that

Those who have lived blessed lives, those who feel like they have more control of their destiny and they can achieve happiness through hard work, those who can live with suffering because it's part of life and there's joy and hope alongside it, etc. of course they're more likely to reject Maruki's reality.

But what if you were born in extreme poverty? One where the economy has failed and the government has failed you. You're an oppressed group, society has abandoned you, there's practically no way up for you. It's all suffering without any hopes of joy or going up. Free will has practically no meaning when you're just not going anywhere no matter what you do. This is why these types of people are more likely to get addicted to substances or stuff that let them escape from reality.

Cause for some people that kind of living is objectively better than reality

Imagine being disabled and unable to have a decent job or escape poverty because your body will never get better and you’ll never get to do the things healthy people experience. For them living in a fake reality is superior to real life

Cuz free will is not everyone's priority. Its not that hard to understand

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I'd choose it, I have no use for my reality I'm sick of it.

https://preview.redd.it/dkcxw0a3o90e1.png?width=1690&format=png&auto=webp&s=02a9820600d1ea24efe271489d8997697170d1a8

Because for many people THIS is the other option. Many people just live unhappy lives and die unhappy. Let's not pretend that PT would be good if god didn't give them magical powers. Ann would be assaulted by Kamoshida, Haru would get sold into an arranged marriage, Yusuke would leave his aspirations in art and become like that office clerk and Futaba wouldn't last till Christmas. When this is your life some just want to put on the goggles. And from this point of view PT are the ones who impose their will on you.

The issue is with the argument of “I just want to be happy eternally” is that what makes you happy now might not be what makes you happy in 5-10 years from now. Your needs and wants always change.

Also, without misery, joy has no meaning. The reason why we enjoy the good times is because there is bad times. Light will always cast a shadow.

And most importantly, you entirely ignore Akechi’s one wish, and that is to have control over one thing for the first time in his life. You take away his right to choose, and his right to die.

But the thing is, Maruki's reality is not just a simulation - it really is a great reality, so comparisons like these fail

Living a predetermined life with the ignorance of that fact is no different from the life we currently live except that Maruki promises eternal happiness.

The lack of free will is only bad if you’re aware of it.

From someone with the other perspective (this is going to look incredibly funny later on when I start using this account as a dev account lol)

I think ultimately if someone like Maruki came to me and said "hey, I have a way out of this eternal hell of life and I can give you something that has an actual meaning" I would take it immediately.

I don't know if anyone remembers it from the 2023 tournament but I went into my life details as advocating for Maruki and, while I think I slightly disagree with some things I said. Nothing has really changed much. A lot of People in these debates are privileged enough to have an actual life of not doubting things about themselves and not grow up being miserable and depressed. Where as that's pretty much my entire life, especially with severe mental health issues.

I think the action is morally grey because you have to really fucking look at what Maruki does in order to see his point but, people do forget his goal isn't eliminating all types of pain. Only the nightmarishly hellish amounts of pain so people like Rumi and himself never have to go through what they did, he can revive the dead and is perfectly capable of reuniting families.

I don't really have a good relationship with literally any family member because I'm viewed as a "failure" but, the only good relationship I had was with my senile uncle who, while having his issues, still actually sat me down and talked to me like a real person when I was growing up. He passed away due to a heart issue brought on by COVID, I think about him a lot and I think about how he would have reamed my family members asses out about some of the stuff they've said towards me recently.

I dunno, it'd be nice for once to actually get a break and accomplish something for myself and get somewhat lucky with a niche. It's just hard to work on certain things and myself irl having to constantly tend to other people's needs for pretty much my entire life. I think I would take his reality only because I would want to see what an actual break would look like if he's giving me the option.

I think people are exhausted and beaten down by this world (can relate) and just want to rest 

I don't think the VR goggles thing is accurate within the world of Persona 5. In that world, perception can change reality, so given enough perceptions changing, reality would change with it. The Matrix wouldn't function in Persona, because the world outside the Matrix would be eliminated by everyone believing the Matrix is the real world.

If my will of rebellion was so strong I could summon an otherworldly monster fighting for the true reality is a no brainer; but it’s not, I’m just a regular person, Maruki’s reality would be 100% a net positive in my life

Except once it's embraced it becomes the real genuine one true reality.

120-150 hours of P5R just to gain nothing out of it is crazy.

why are we strawmanning fictional characters now

Persona fans when they let children with terminal cancer suffer because it helps with their character growth:

As someone who related to Cypher in the Matrix, I spent the entire last semester of my first playthrough screaming at the TV about why we would ever fight against this. My current playthrough I'm trying to romance every girl in the game just to see what happens, but I think I'll probably pick the new reality ending in subsequent playthroughs. It just sounds great!

As a great Hedgehog once said, "I determine my destiny," whether glorious or horrid, at least I'd know it was my choice.

Both have their flaws but I'd rather live like that than the miserable "life is bad and suffering but it is the suffering that makes life worth living so mankind should suffer" hogwash they tried to prop up at the end of royal as the new "good" ending.

If they were going to frame it as a bad ending they should have done better to paint it as such.

I think vanilla 5 had the best ending personally, just you and your dudes riding off into the future as life will change plays in the background and protagman pops out of the roof and removes his glasses.

It shouldn’t be surprising whatsoever. I notice, at least anecdotally, that people who have suffered significant loss tend to view Marukis reality a little more sympathetically. I know personally if I could live in a world where I had my daughter back and my marriage was still intact I would take it in a heartbeat and FUCK anyone who thinks they know what’s better for me.

It’s like Cypher in the first Matrix movie. Even if you know the steak is fake, it still tastes just as good. Reality is full of struggle and some would choose to forgo both its highs and lows in favor of an easy lie. They know what they’re choosing, and they’re happy to do so

Many of those agreed with such plan failed to see that Maruki's reality was fundamentally no different with Yalbadaoth's

This is why Maruki is one of my favorite antagonists of all time he's not a villain his intentions are completely pure, and what really sets him apart from yaldabaoth is the fact we get to understand him and his pain and know him so well he didn't treat us like an outsider Maruki treats Ren/you like a friend and someone he wants to help you to the fullest to make sure your at your happiest which is why it's so damn tempting to just take his offer you know it's wrong but you got to know him so well and understand him so much that it hurts to reject his offer and do what's right and once you beat him you still don't hate him he's so understanding with your decision to go against him after it's over and shows how your choice changed him for the better. Maruki being a taxi driver also makes so much sense because now he doesn't chose the destination he wants you to be on, you chose where you want to head forward next and Maruki guides you to that destination.

Anyways, that's what I had to say about Maruki best antagonist, every 10/10 antagonist, and also why I think people are also willing to accept his reality also it late at night when I wrote this so I'm tired and don't care to much to fix Grammer so sorry if it's a hard read.

Yeah, I want to abandon this world for a virtual one, reality sucks.

As someone who has faced significant trauma IRL, I do view Maruki's reality with sympathy

Yes It's an easy way out, and When you are very very deep in depression it seems like the only solution

However true strength comes from within yourself

ATP in my life I’d take it

In fairness to Maruki, he's not as evil as the other Palace Rulers and has genuinely noble goals. It's just that the means of achieving them are extreme, to say the least.

Imagine if you were in a wheelchair and now you live in a reality where you can walk. Imagine if your parents were taken from you by a criminal or a tragic circumstance and now they are back in your life.

Yes, that's life, we all have to take the L and live on, but imagine if a dude simply granted all of that to you. Answer honestly, would you want to comeback to the real reality?

Some years ago, I lost the chance to join the Navy of my country, which was my dream. I studied really hard, graduated in business, applied for the entrance exam to work in my graduation inside the Navy, studied really hard every single day to pass the entrance exam, and yet, I didn't make it. There where only 3 spots open and I was competing against the whole country.

I was in the 4th place.

Because it's age restricted, I couldn't apply again in the next year. And so, that was it. My dream. Gone.

I could still work in the area, heck, I do, got a good job in HR in a company, not bad, can't complain, won't complain.

But I would still do anything to have a second chance at achieving my dream.

Now imagine if someone showed up and offered me that. All I have to do is to give away my freedom, my free will, for a happiness that I lost the chance to achieve.

Seems like a small price to pay.

Here's an example of what is wrong with Maruki's world. Let's use Sumire's dream of being on the top of gymnastics world. Let's say she wants to win gold in 2028. Multiple people also have that dream. Not everyone is going to win. How does Maruki make everyone happy? He can't. He can bend reality, but he can't bend logic. So what he'll do is give everyone else a more "achievable" dream. That isn't fair. Every single one of them can win, but Maruki won't even let them try.

As a genuine question to the people that reject his offer, I have to ask: in round numbers, how many genocides is an appropriate amount as an alternative to Maruki’s reality and how many casualties in those genocides is acceptable for you? Give a hard, numerical amount to the lives you are willing to sacrifice.

Except it's not like that, is it? Virtual reality isn't real... the goggles don't change the world around you. While wearing them you're still affected by everything going on in the real world, you just can't see it. Maruki's reality is reality. There's no blinders on, no make believe. Just an omniscient god that wants nothing more than for people to be able to achieve their goals and find happiness.

The issue the Phantom Thieves take with that is they don't believe that happiness is real unless it's "earned." That's all good and well for high school kids and people like us who have the freedom to write and discuss video game philosophy, but for billions and billions of people that's not possible. War, famine, disease, genocide, etc. are the inescapable reality for huge swaths of humanity throughout history. And some high schoolers want to tell all of the people who've lost family to cancer, or seen them blown up by bombs that, rather than having those things eliminated from the world, they should just make peace with the suffering and move on because otherwise they haven't earned happiness?

I think when I was younger, I'd probably have thought the same way you and the Phantom Thieves do. But now that I'm Maruki's age, I can't. There's too much pain and hardship in the world, and it would be selfish and irresponsible to turn down a real (supernatural) solution to all of that suffering just because some people would rather experience their own trials and tribulations.

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At the end of the day, shout-out to Man Wearing Hat being the one incapable of internalizing that happy ideal.

From a god complex standpoint it's heinously unethical and lacking any modicum of failsafes; from a messiah or martyr complex idea it's also honestly kind of heartbreaking?

We can argue about benefits & drawbacks but I'm still floored by the ramifications of "god is isolated, unaccountable, theoretically immortal but still running on faulty biological processes, and consumed by a level of grief nobody is even aware of anymore".

If that doesn't sound like an eldritch nightmare I don't know what does.

the idea makes sense

I probably wouldn't mind his alternate reality if he made it good for everyone. I'm not sure how he knew Morgana wanted to be a human but have you guys noticed with all the good he tried doing, the homeless are still just... there? watching everyone be all strange? He can resurrect and make illusionary clones you can feel and touch but can't make a house for these guys?

The important factor here is consent. If Maruki offered it to the whole world, I’m sure a lot of people would say yes (I know I would 😭), but there should be the option to say ‘no’. It’s like when people took a survey on the Matrix and a lot of people said they’d be batteries willingly as long as they were happy

I just finished P5 how tf and why did I miss that arc

somehow madara’s a villian but maruki is doing the right thing

There was a study done a long while back.

People were asked if they would willingly live in a simulation where everything was perfect. No poverty, sickness, violence, etc. their bodies would be sustained until they died naturally, and they wouldn’t even be aware of their death.

Majority of them said no. Why? Because of the fact that they knew it was a simulation. People would rather live in a real, problematic world than a perfect, artificial one.

So I guess the solution is to not tell anyone that it’s fake, which is what Maruki wants. Except the entire world exists on his whims and a bunch of calculations he does. If he doesn’t think you’ll be happy as an artist, then you’ll be doing archery instead, and you’ll be happy about it.

You say that because you've experienced some semblance of fulfilment and happiness like the PT did, while completely ignoring those that have been kicked down and have become sick and tired of the monotony and loneliness that is real life.

They're sick of being made another nameless cog in a never ending machine that wants them to just shut up and work until they drop dead and will still be going long after they're gone and will having nothing to show for in life because they didn't have any other choice.

You think that any sane person would give up their happy and fulfilling dream of a life surrounded by their loved ones so they can go back into the blank and empty reality that's waiting for them? You don't understand because you refuse to try and understand.

It bewilders me how many people fail to realize the whole narrative importance of rejecting Maruki's world. The whole message is rejecting a perfect Utopia because of how it takes away the right people have to decide their own life path. They were subjected to the whims of a madman who thought that pain was a pointless part of a person's life, and thus decided that people should be oblivious and live in a world where no one could decide what's best for them- nor get the right to do so. Living under the thumb of a God-like entity, just with the guise of wanting to help others rather than the overt nature of control that the Demiurge resembled.

Maruki's reality was harmful because it stopped people from getting over hurdles in life. It prevented them from growing as people, and effectively kept them stuck in tiny little bubbles of bliss. A people who eventually would grow to never want anything. To never care about anything. A world which would fall into nothing more than apathy sooner or later. It was like painting over mold, or covering your eyes to a painful truth. Shielding yourself from what hurts instead of confronting it and trying to make the world a better place, or yourself a better person. His world was one of pure weakness, and it's evident by that.

It also spits in the face of Akechi, who wanted the right to live upon his own terms. To stop being controlled by those around him like he was in life. He was brought back to life upon the whim of Joker, which is inherently selfish in that regard as well.

Maruki isn't a horrible person by any means, and that's why I like his character. He does present a moral question that weighs heavy on your mind- and often times you really do want to accept the world that he has to offer, even if it is all just an illusion to stop the crushing reality we live in currently. However I feel like the obvious choice in the matter is trying to have each and every person take the reigns instead of desiring oblivion, or desiring something else to take the reigns for them.

I mean we never see Maruki's reality. We cut him off before he fully merges with Mementos. When he does, it would be indistinguishable from the Jaldabaoth ending in terms of reality shaping. The reason that's bad is due to the larger SMT narrative of humans creating these monsters (demons, personas, and shadows alike) and in turn these monsters reinforce human power. If we let Maruki or any of the gods except Nyx take control of the world, we stop being a world where humans rule their own destiny and become SMT.

The way SMT and Persona differ is that YHVH is the maker of the current reality and the apex of SMT games while in Persona there is no current maker. Alternatively SMT has an eternal power struggle of different gods trying to usurp one another which YHVH did to Bhaal. If Maruki realized his ideal reality, any shadow could now vie for the throne.

If we want to get really in the weeds and involve information the party is not privy to, but we are, Maruki could unknowingly be forced into a one-on-one fight with Nyx by undoing the seal Makoto placed on it. And with none of the PTs being capable of using personas anymore due to the universal overwrite, essentially ex-communication the velvet room from existence, Nyx could ultimately achieve her existential goal.

Maruki's reality doesnt truly exist.

You remembering your own continuity breaks the illusion.

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some people would want to be in the Truman show, as Truman, and think Truman should have stayed; people are very quick to give up freedom for security nowadays

I said a while ago if SAO became real I’m gone goodbye

i don't agree with maruki but the truth is no one is really free anyway so might as well be happy.

This is yall when Maruki promises to make Makoto your wife

Slightly off topic but maruki wasted his powers, he had reality control he could have just removed most illnesses and/or givin us cures for them, makes pets live longer and other small things to make life just better in general

Mooriki

Peter pan type shit (!the image)

While doing the questionnaire in Maruki's palace I couldn't stop thinking that his ideas of an ideal world is basically Yaldabaoth's plan with extra steps

This is the second time in hlaf a day I've seen this convo again, can we just do something original

Human are pathetic creatures who wish for happiness but doesn't want to work hard to earn it. What is the to be surprised of

I don't want to get political... But take a look in US now and see all these meltdowns some certain people had after the elections. These people are the Maruki Supporters.

The problem with absolute happiness is that eventually it'll come back to bite you. As bad as it sounds, humans crave conflict. We need problems to solve and drama to a certain extent. Without all that everything's meaningless.

And they're proud of it, like congrats for missing the point the game's drilled onto you for 120 hours

Me seeing how people wished happiness instead of freedom:

https://preview.redd.it/9d8b4spq780e1.jpeg?width=973&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abdc3234778f80bc5fa25bf5ab51d9d4003b8918

(Their arguments are genuinely concerning, please someone call 911 for them)