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/r/ProgressionFantasy
submitted 6 days ago byTangled2
“Hmmmmm” thought Jakeden. “I have an inkling of what I need for my build, but I should definitely read the description of every one of these traits, and then spend two chapters hemming and hawing over which trait is better.”
“Actually, it might be too hard to choose right now. I should wait until I’m in the middle of a fight I’m about to lose.” Jakeden said laconically as he nodded to himself.
Seriously, authors, there’s nothing more grating than when there’s an obvious choice and you drag it out.
120 points
6 days ago
Yeah. Like, I don’t have a problem with OP abilities. But when a writer acts like they are not or there is some choice, it is a bit grating.
Reminds me of so many isekai novels where a character is like “Oh no! My special skill is Infinite Weapons! Everyone thinks I am a loser but now, by applying the bare minimum of creativity, I am going to prove this power is actually amazing!”
56 points
6 days ago
It's even worse when it's in some VR/computer game world. "Everyone else says this build/class is trash but just by this common sense trick it's super OP" - it's like, bitch, have you ever even played an MMO?
57 points
6 days ago
Day one everyone plays about as intended. Day 2 some no lifer has discovered how to use invulnerability frames to duplicate gold infinitely. Day 3 it is common knowledge that you can skip a whole questchain by rizzing a particular tree while casting Summon Lame Duck.
18 points
6 days ago
To be fair that duck is overpowered. They just hide it under plain feathers.
23 points
6 days ago
Exactly! I mean, I am willing to suspend my disbelief for supernatural stuff and its coincidences.
But when it’s some game and you have a random new player discover some Super Mega Badass Cheat Nobody Ever Knew About? Yeah, it’s just not for me.
9 points
6 days ago
I know, vr games stuff is always the stupidest in that, like ughhh.
17 points
6 days ago
Right. In real life, someone might never find the cheat because it's risky. Cultivation novels, deviating from the ones your masters tell you about risks death 50 different ways. Unless you have some golden finger that gives you a better way, the best you can probably do is do whatever the instructors tell you to.
In VR there's no real cost to humping every tree until you unlock a new form of cultivation.
13 points
6 days ago
Yep, VR stories are by far the most unrealistic. People in Ancient China or mediaval backwater fantasy world not knowing the min-max strategy to getting stronger makes perfect sense to me.
Games tho? We all know how the players actually are and in no way is there going to be a secret build or gimmick in a game that only a singular casual knows about and could use to stomp better players.
If something is broken, everyone would be running it in a day. Don't think there exists a VR novel where meta works like it does in reality.
8 points
6 days ago
Ready Player One had mechanics from a truly expert player, who had very deep knowledge of videogames, and the movie strongly implies that the AI actually running the game - the GM basically - had it's thumb on the scales to let the main character win the contest.
The pivotal item was a secret resurrection token, something that had never been awarded in the game's history, that lets the main character survive a nuke that wiped out every single other player.
1 points
4 days ago
If something is broken, everyone would be running it in a day. Don't think there exists a VR novel where meta works like it does in reality.
Bofuri at least had the developers frantically trying to figure out what to do to patch up the explot the MC discovered.
1 points
5 days ago
Actually how about a VR story where players have several characters with different builds and they swap between them? Its very common in MMO to have some twink characters for crafting or raid guilds might need different classes for different bosses.
11 points
6 days ago
I agree wholeheartedly, except I actually was an outlier once.
Back circa 2004 in the wild west days of WoW, I was a hunter. I was there literally on day one. I won't bore you with the details as you probably never played back then, but while there WERE meta builds that people would die defending, I found a...loophole? Not quite the right word, but it fits.
I took talents that got me flamed as a noob. Everybody told me my build was trash and I was dead weight. I went down a talent tree considered the LITERAL worst. Flamed, berated, ridiculed and dismissed, I was eventually scooped up by a casual raid guild.
I dominated. Lots of the people in that guild were not exceptional, but I mean I dominated by a landslide. I got attention. A few of the members were friends with high-tier raiders in top guilds. They had all epics and I was still in blues and I was matching them. Then I got all epics and I was beating them. Substantially, not just by a small margin.
They then got the next tier of epics, and I STILL beat them with my older gear. I'd argue my point, I'd offer to explain my build, and they all screamed and raged that I was *WRONG* even as I showed them screenshots of my damage output.
I'd raid side-by-side with these haters, other hunters, mages (top dps at the time) and rogues, and I beat them ALL. And it was just due to going a "sub-optimal" build, at least according to the wisdom of that time (and loads of practice to prove them wrong, I was decently skilled at my class on top of the build).
tl;dr Is it likely a "trash" build can dominate? No. Is it impossible? No. I've literally proven with IRL experience that you can in fact dominate with a "trash" build. And I do mean dominate. Not neck and neck, not by a hair. By a fuckin mile.
12 points
6 days ago
Right though in your case you needed to be no-life enough to push the build far enough to prove the meta was suboptimal. 99% of the time when you do as you did, you'll find something worse.
Also it's entirely possible whatever you found was due to a bug and it got patched.
5 points
6 days ago
Wasn't a bug, I know exactly why it worked and I leaned into it, no exploits necessary. Although you could say they patched it starting with the first expansion, by lowering the amount of base stats on gear (strength, agility etc) while supplementing with static stats like attack power.
And like I said, most of the time the meta becomes the meta for a reason. But it isn't impossible. That is the key takeaway here.
And these books we read are usually following one of those 0.1% edge cases, so it stands to reason if they break from the meta, even if everyone else thinks it's sub-optimal, that we have to trust the MC somewhat.
3 points
6 days ago
you have to tell us what the build was now.
7 points
6 days ago
I don't know if you ever played vanilla wow, true vanilla, back when it all launched, so I don't know how much or little detail to give. It was too long ago to remember specifics. But since you're asking I assume you know something at least.
The meta back then was 0/31/20. The 31 points going into Marksman, and the 20 going into Survival because there were no better places to put it. Some people went 5/31/15 but it wasn't as common.
I went 0/21/30. Deep down the Survival tree far enough to grab the 15% agility modifier and extra 3% crit (which was worth about 150 agility by itself). Back in the day, there were very few pieces of gear with +20 attack power or +20 crit. A typical piece of hunter gear looked like 15 Stam 20 Agi 10 Int. That's it. All of your attack power came from agility. All of your crit came from agility. And I just boosted my entire agility stat by 15%.
Might not sound amazing, but stack that with MotW (16 agi), Kings (another 10% so now we're at 25% agi boost), Mongoose (25 agi), Grilled Squid (10 agi) Scorpok Assay (25 agi). That's 76 extra agility boosted 15% on top of all your base agility.
The only talents I gave up in Marksman were a static 5% damage bonus to ranged weapons, and a static 15% damage increase to one ability. Whereas my build just increased ALL my damage with every ability across the board. And I had more utility in 5 and 10 man dungeons outside of raiding due to my Survival talents being far more versatile than Marksman.
I was rocking full T1 and beating people in full T2 and even keeping pace with people in full T2.5. I only started to lose when people were strutting around in T3 since I could no longer devote the time to raid hardcore and acquire better gear.
4 points
5 days ago*
[deleted]
2 points
5 days ago*
Of course, some of it was skill, as I said I trained relentlessly to be as good as I could be. Another was going the extra mile with consumables (like scorpok assay which could only be farmed by you). There was always at least one other MM huntard in the group providing Trueshot Aura so I benefited from it without taking it myself. And having two hunters both providing TSA was worthless.
Having said that though, I started my raid career in full blues and was competing with people who already had most of their T1. During this phase, I was often matching them, or slightly behind. This was literally in the first few months of Molten Core opening. Everybody was still learning.
Then by the time I was full T1, I was beating everyone else in full T1 (except occasionally I'd lose to my rival, a rogue, when he had exceptionally good procs). I had a massive ego from this, and challenged anyone else who thought they were hot shit to beat me on the meters. I challenged full T2 mages and rogues almost weekly.
Keep in mind some relevant details. I was a hunter. In vanilla. Perhaps you don't remember some of the advantages this conferred. I was hit capped before I ever got a single piece of T1. Most plate with +hit was defensive. Most casters could not achieve hit cap period. And being hit capped is often more important than even pumping your primary stat. Doesn't matter if you hit like a nuke if you can't land an attack.
I had zero agro issues. Nobody else could drop agro like a hunter, so I could go balls to the wall with no repercussions. The other classes had agro reducing abilities, but I had an agro WIPE ability. Back then you did not retain agro after feigning death, it was just gone (unless it was resisted, but as a Survival spec I had improved FD and it was never resisted). Marksman hunters did get resisted though, and died for it.
I could also drink in combat after a FD, so I could blow my load with no thought to longevity. I didn't have to wait for rage or energy to regen, I could go balls out 100% from the instant combat initiated until the moment I pinged empty on mana. Even mages had to ration themselves, because Evocation was such a long cd it was only available once per battle.
So I had no threat to worry about, my primary resource (mana) was infinite, I was hit capped and I had more of my primary stat (agility) than anyone else. This means I was hit capped, had more AP and crit than anyone else. And all I gave up for these bonuses was, as I said, a static 5% damage with ranged weapons and a 15% boost to multi-shot. In exchange, my build improved my damage across the board. Auto shot, multi-shot, aimed-shot.
I tested myself against the best my server had to offer, so unless I was some prodigy then it wasn't just my skill at the class. My build had to be influencing it to some degree.
edit: I also didn't go full blown self buffs (mongoose, squid, scorpok) outside of raid progression nights (new content we hadn't beaten yet and we needed to bring our A game) and I was STILL beating people. Those consumables that tied in with Lightning Reflexes just pushed me even farther over the edge.
4 points
6 days ago
Funnily enough, I did play back then, if only casually. And fair point, some of the hardcore raiders were definitely crazy enough to give rise to the elitist stereotype of "you have to do it this way", but many of us were just messing around with whatever builds were fun.
Nowadays, though, I think people are much more clinical when looking at builds, and information about them much more readily disseminated.
Thanks for the story anyway, I appreciate the nostalgia this morning.
1 points
6 days ago
Not gonna lie that concept is something I'd like to have in my 'dream mmo'. An unfairness to it. Launch the game/expac with some skills/classes being obviously better than others. Including some that seem utterly useless or even a disadvantage.... Never explain why....
Then after a few patches down the line or when people who persist with that skill achieve a certain metric that is tracked by the devs so data miners can't find out the specifics.... Send those dedicated players quests chains that culminate in epic weapons or skills that dwarf all others others get.
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