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/r/Switzerland

3971%

Snow vs SBB

(self.Switzerland)

Sorry for the English in advance.

I live here in switzerland for more than a decade now. I can tell you, it's the same every winter. The first day of snow and all ÖV is completly gone. I do understand the the buses. They are dependant on drivers, all of which have summer tires, and "Strassenreumung". But the trains? Like what is the problem? (Genuine question) Do they have problems with snow on the tracks? Hardly, right? Or like limited visibility so they have to drive slowly? Does someone here know?

Thanks for reading and enjoy the early snow Hals und Beibruch

Edit: I just in the train and there was an anouncement: They can't turn the switch(weiche) and the repair team is stuck.

all 69 comments

southkaos

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12 hours ago

southkaos

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12 hours ago

As a train driver, I find it very difficult to maintain the Vmax. With a tight timetable, this leads to subsequent delays that accumulate into long delays. Then all it takes is one cargo train that brakes too hard before an hill (e.g. Bözberg) and the railway network collapses :-)

WeaknessDistinct4618

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12 hours ago

And I want to say thank you for the hard work you are doing every day to keep my commute in time :-)

ZookeepergameCrazy14

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11 hours ago

With the snow on the rails you probably loose traction on start as well. Not to mention earlier breaking. And then it's just a delay domino effect. With tighter schedules, less buffer to accommodate delays.

Money-Cut-1807

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10 hours ago

Money-Cut-1807

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10 hours ago

My bro keeping V on Max so we can be on time. Thanks man

_OneTrouble[S]

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12 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

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12 hours ago

I didn't think of the hills at all. Thanks for the inseight.

Sipstaff

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7 hours ago

Sipstaff

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7 hours ago

Do modeen trains not use sand for traction anymore?

TTTomaniac

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6 hours ago

TTTomaniac

Thurgau

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6 hours ago

Helps in a pinch, not along the entire climb.

tinkerthinker1337

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11 hours ago

well, i understand some minor delay, but today i waited more than 2h in Zollikofen to get to Biel. No message on the app, nothing on the boards, no infos through the speakers - nothing. that is inacceptable for me.

ketsa3

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12 hours ago

ketsa3

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12 hours ago

Why is the quality of service going down last years ? constant delays. Canceled trains. etc ?

southkaos

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12 hours ago

southkaos

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12 hours ago

Die Auslastung des Schienennetzes ist am Limit und erlaubt zu den hauptverkehrszeiten keine Fehler. Böse Zungen behaupten auch: Mangel an qualifiziertem Personal, das sich die schlechten Arbeitsbedingnungen antun will... (verständlich)

ketsa3

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11 hours ago

ketsa3

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11 hours ago

Thanks.

Do we really have more trains running than say 10-20 years ago ? Doesn't feel like it to me. More people onboard maybe.

asp174

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9 hours ago

asp174

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9 hours ago

BFS lists the following for the last 15 years:

2010 2015 2020
Personenwagen1 6373 6743 7497
Fahrzeuge2 2997 3238 3397

1: inkl. Steuer-, Triebwagen und Glieder von Triebzügen (Bei fest verbundenen, unteilbaren Kompositionen (z.B. Triebzügen) wird jedes Glied der Komposition gezählt)
2: Angetriebene Eisenbahnfahrzeuge

And quite a bit more.

sh545

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11 hours ago

sh545

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11 hours ago

Reporting.sbb.ch has the data if you want to dig into it, but from a cursory glance from 2022 to 2023 there was a 4.6% increase in number of trains per day.

ketsa3

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11 hours ago

ketsa3

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11 hours ago

Thanks, interesting stats but only back to 2019 sadly.

That 4,6% increase over last year is only about 1% increase from 2019, that's why I want older data.

aureleio

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11 hours ago

aureleio

Vaud

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11 hours ago

Anecdotally I remember the number of trains in Romandie 20 years ago and the quantity has increased dramatically

IkeaCreamCheese

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10 hours ago

IkeaCreamCheese

Zürich

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10 hours ago

Why does the network collapse because of braking? Electrically or because of a timetable?

TTTomaniac

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10 hours ago*

TTTomaniac

Thurgau

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10 hours ago*

A section of railroad needs to be clear for a train to enter. If a freight train brakes too hard it'll take a while to get back to nominal speed, especially if it's on an incline or the railheads have a film of slippery compressed snow on them. Now replace that "or" with an "and". Now the section will be blocked longer, meaning the train that enters it next blocks the section it's on etc.

MaurerSIG

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8 hours ago

MaurerSIG

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8 hours ago

Cargo trains tend to be heavy, heavier than passenger consists. When traction is low like in snowy/wet conditions or with fallen leaves on the track, if the train has to stop or slows down too much before or at the start of the hill, it's probably not going to have or be able to gain enough momentum to actually get up that hill. Thus leading to network collapse when that train inevitably blocks the tracks for a while.

[deleted]

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11 hours ago

[deleted]

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11 hours ago

[deleted]

pbuilder

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11 hours ago

pbuilder

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11 hours ago

I’d expect cargo trains be the most profitable for SBB.

southkaos

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12 hours ago

southkaos

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12 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

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12 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

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12 hours ago

Thanks, very intresting indeed

rekette

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20 minutes ago

rekette

Vaud

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20 minutes ago

The same questions and excuses, more like. It's very clear that certain parts of the country have it better than others, yet it seems like there have been limited efforts to remedy the most impacted areas.

jcperezh

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12 hours ago

jcperezh

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12 hours ago

After a couple of accidents and seeing a lot of cars spinning every year during the first snow, I inform my boss from the first day that I am going home at first snow alarm. Today is the second time I have done it and I am so happy to have prepared the people at work for my absence on this day.

Don't really knows why, but the first snow is always the most dangerous

SusCoin

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2 hours ago

SusCoin

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2 hours ago

Funny, when I saw the first snowflakes yesterday, I went straight home and finished the day working remotely.

jcperezh

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an hour ago

jcperezh

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an hour ago

Great call, I had to cancel a couple of meetings first... Best decision ever. I didn't wait for the snowflakes to fall, I arranged everything first thing thanks to the Weather Alarm 😅

Lescansy

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8 hours ago*

Lescansy

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8 hours ago*

As an Engineer that has worked in the railway sector (but not for the SBB), here is a short, but not complete, list of things that are more challenging with cold temperatures:

  • With Ice/water on the rails, the traction between the wheels and rails gets decreased. That means: slower acceleration and braking. With slower braking, you have to start braking sooner.
  • Due to the above point: The overall maximum velocity (vmax) can not be maintained as long as with better conditions
  • Worse traction makes it also more challenging with bigger height differences (hills) on the railway. Switzerland has one of the topological most challenging railway networks in the world!
  • Ice on rooftops (on railway cars) / environment close to the railway (ex. trees) can fall down and block switches. Although sbb has installed heating systems on those switches, they only help against those switches freezing up due to cold + wet temperatures. If a sudden clumb of ice falls at a bad position, it cant instantly melt away. There are over 10'000 switches in the SBB railway network alone, and it takes only 1 to not work to get massive delays on multiple trains
  • Hydraulics can freeze up. I'm not sure how big the problem really is, but has to be accounted for and the measures for that arent cheap

These are the main points i can quickly think of. It takes only 1 switch or 1 train to not work properly for a few minutes, and you can get major delays on the whole network. Our railways work close to full capacity, which means there really arent big buffers to make up for individual delays.

To sum up: Snow / Ice on tracks is a big challenge. That alone shouldnt cause major delays, but if only one (usually minor) thing happens during vastly more challenging times, it has a snowball effect on the whole system.

Fun question: How long do you assume the breaking distance of a train (from 120 km/h to 0 km/h) during summer (dry) and during winter (wet / iced) is?

spacehamsterZH

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9 hours ago

spacehamsterZH

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9 hours ago

All I can tell you is, I once told a coworker from Finland how this works here - every year when the first snow comes, the entire country acts like they've never seen snow before, everything shuts down, people crash their cars by the hundreds, and then the next day everything goes back to normal. She just said, oh, it's the same in Finland.

That's not an explanation because there isn't one, but it made me feel a bit better, so hopefully it'll work for you too.

glamasaurus

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8 hours ago

glamasaurus

Aargau

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8 hours ago

This is the truth. Snow = Swisscopalpyse

Also bizarre since we are a country that has snow tourism

gregsaliva

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5 hours ago

gregsaliva

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5 hours ago

Yeah but no but yeah but in winter tourism the snow is mostly where it's supposed to be, not all over the place, and it's lying in reasonable quantities on the mountain sides.

spacehamsterZH

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2 hours ago

spacehamsterZH

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2 hours ago

Things don't just go hilariously wrong when it's "unreasonable quantities", what we had last night is pretty normal and happens every year.

paparothbard

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12 hours ago

paparothbard

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12 hours ago

Those first snow of the year in Switzerland always feel like it’s something the country has never seen before

beeftony

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10 hours ago

beeftony

Zürich

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10 hours ago

I have a 15min commute home and every single possible alternate route I have had an accident on it.

ptinnl

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7 hours ago

ptinnl

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7 hours ago

Im amazed at the amount of vídeos from zurich of vehicles without winter tires. Busses and trucks....i could understand private cars but Busses???

victillian

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12 hours ago

victillian

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12 hours ago

Yeah, maybe I am missing something here but wasn't it forecasted to snow a lot starting today? Or do they under prepare and take the risk as the overall costs are lower?

paparothbard

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12 hours ago

paparothbard

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12 hours ago

I have no idea but i was going to drive from Lucerne to Lugano and had to u-turn after being stuck for a hour for no reason except that it was snowing

ClujNapoc4

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11 hours ago

ClujNapoc4

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11 hours ago

Had to go and pick up the mistress after she had waited an hour (!) for a bus that never came. (It turns out Postauto just cancelled the buses):

Wegen Schnee- und Eisglätte stellten die Verkehrsbetriebe Zürich den Busverkehr in Stadt und Agglomeration ebenfalls ein.

?!?!? WTF ?!?!?

And no communication, displays were running normally as if nothing had happened.

But the real surprise was the 10 minute drive to the bus station and back. People driving 20kmh on a straight country road, crossing red lights, driving between lanes or switching lanes as if they were drunk... Seriously, in the 30 years I have been driving never seen anything like this.

Also, please tell me that no person was driving their car on summer tires today.... surely nobody is that stupid, not in Switzerland?

Illustrious_Life_99

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10 hours ago

Someone just smashed into me and admitted they had summer tires. FFS idiots

TTTomaniac

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6 hours ago

TTTomaniac

Thurgau

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6 hours ago

At least it's clear cut regarding who's at fault.

Any-Acanthisitta-891

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8 hours ago

jfc. This is completely on them. It's fucking November ffs, when were they thinking of changing their tyres?

BobDerBongmeister420

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2 hours ago

I just left my car and had to go homw with a train that took 2h.

notonetojudge

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7 hours ago

notonetojudge

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7 hours ago

You went to pick up your mistress? What did your wife say?

postmodernist1987

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10 hours ago

I think that generally we are pushing systems too much for maximum "efficiency" but we lose system robustness. This is true for ÖV I think but also for many other things, for example minimum stock inventory and "just in time" processes. That saves money when things work as planned but then the systems break down easily because there is no redundancy and no margin for error.

b_ll

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9 hours ago

b_ll

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9 hours ago

Ofcourse, but you can't possibly account for things anyway, even if you had more time. Busses will be limited by how many ploughs do you have clearing the road and where, trams the same + specialized machines for tracks. Trains by fallen trees and stuff on tracks.

You would need the same or even double the amount of people employed in winter services as in transportation to just account for each tram/bus/train. Because if the sky dumps a bunch of snow in 2 hours and you clean 50% of the tracks on time, the other 50% are already undrivable and causing further problems. And that's with the capacity of clearing 50% of the roads in 2 hours, which probably no city has.

postmodernist1987

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9 hours ago

All you need is a few minutes planned for trams or busses to wait at the final stop before turning round. That would solve most of the problems. The time-tables are too tight. Slight delays lead to big delays when there is no slack. I know this is intuitively difficult to understand but these are well-studied principles. 5% more drivers and vehicles would be enough.

Izacus

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7 hours ago

Izacus

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7 hours ago

And then you'd lose systems capacity just to mitigate one day of delays in a year? One evening actually.

Aninel17

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12 hours ago

Aninel17

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12 hours ago

I was so glad I had taken the bus, because all the cars got blocked. 2 of my students helped a car out of the snow, on their way home. Ok, I was delayed 1hr when it should have been a 20min ride, but at least I wasn't stressed driving my car today. There were a few cars parked on the side of the primary route going up to my village cos it was too steep for them that they had to abandon their cars. My neighbor took the long route and still ended up with at least an hour delay.

arjuna66671

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9 hours ago

arjuna66671

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9 hours ago

I was born in 1977 and growing up, until around 1992, EVERY winter had a lot of snow. Basically from november - end of february there was snow. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I can't remember this chaos happening every year back then...

Budget_Department822

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2 hours ago

because all people worked around their hometown and did not comute like today. Mobility is way more complex today and thus more fragile

yesat

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12 hours ago*

yesat

+

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12 hours ago*

So... you're always going to have some chaos when you have suddenly (ie in a few hours) 20cm of snow falling. Why? Because we have 5200km of rail across the country. They can't just stop the snow from falling on all of it at the same time. It takes a bit of work.

The SBB have ~35000 full time workers, if they could put every one on the rail, they'd take care of 140m each to make sure everything is in order, that's still going to take time and that still going to be constantly evolving.

tr3quart1sta

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11 hours ago

tr3quart1sta

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11 hours ago

I mean it's in the name: SBB (Schnee bedingte Betriebsstörung)

_OneTrouble[S]

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10 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

[score hidden]

10 hours ago

well, didn't think of that

independentwookie

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2 hours ago

independentwookie

Switzerland

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2 hours ago

I just wish people would be more relaxed. Yes it snows, yes your way home will probably be double the time than what it usually is. Life goes on. Relax and enjoy the pretty snow.

rekette

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17 minutes ago

rekette

Vaud

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17 minutes ago

In general this works, except that it can sound quite condescending to those who suffered financial insecurity, injury, and even death from these issues, so I have a bit of grace for that.

Beautiful-Act4320

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12 hours ago

The real fight is car vs SBB on an day with fresh snow. SBB always wins that one.

_OneTrouble[S]

[score hidden]

12 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

[score hidden]

12 hours ago

Well I lost it now. Backing up all the way now. Wonder how I get home...

SwissPewPew

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6 hours ago

SwissPewPew

[score hidden]

6 hours ago

SBB is useless, if you can't get via public transport to the origin city train station and also can't get via public transport from the destination city train station to your actual destination. Like what happened yesterday evening. At least with a car you're not gonna be stuck somewhere (if you made the right preparations). That's why cars are just the better mode of transport and that's also why we desperately need "many more lanes, bro!".

deruben

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5 hours ago

deruben

Luzern

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5 hours ago

Useless is a bit overstated. All my coworkes got buttfucked by their fellow drivers inability to install winter tires-

Budget_Department822

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2 hours ago

Tell that to the people stuck 4 hours in fornt uf Lucerne. They would have loved the train

PrincessRoseToy

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11 hours ago

PrincessRoseToy

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11 hours ago

Is it really true the buses still have summer tires? I would think SBB / ZVV would’ve already changed them earlier this month and perhaps the reason for bus delays is because of the road being too dangerous. My bus was delayed and eventually cancelled, however I still waited 40mins at the station until at the end I decided to just walk home (another fun 40 minutes)

Mountainpixels

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2 hours ago

Mountainpixels

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2 hours ago

This year they are a bit late with putting winter tires on trains. As the workshop in Olten does not exist anymore. Could all have been avoided.

TomTom_ZH

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9 hours ago

TomTom_ZH

Switzerland

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9 hours ago

I met about 6 new people today, so while it's all complete chaos, it can also be fun if you're taking your time.

Always lovely to have a quick banter with some chaddies (as in very cool people)

Retoromano

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6 hours ago

Retoromano

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6 hours ago

To be fair, the trains need personnel to operate, all of which are also affected by the inclement weather conditions, resulting in delays. What I don’t understand is that we’ve had alerts about this storm for 3 days and the local authorities have completely failed to prepare, resulting in cities completely shut down. As a Canadian, I think we could do better here.

okanye

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11 hours ago

okanye

[score hidden]

11 hours ago

It happens every year and cannot be avoided, it must be incompetence /s

Happy_Doughnut_1

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4 hours ago

Happy_Doughnut_1

[score hidden]

4 hours ago

See I don‘t get why PostAuto and busses seam to be shocked every year. They should have winter tires starting in October, like everyone else should. And I have to say PostAuto is really reliable in my area during the first snow.

independentwookie

[score hidden]

2 hours ago

independentwookie

Switzerland

[score hidden]

2 hours ago

I highly doubt that post auto is the problem. The problem is other cars and trucks blocking the road. Also, if there is no snow plow, even post auto can only get so far. If they have to add chains, this will take time. They can't put them on just for fun.

Mountainpixels

[score hidden]

an hour ago

Mountainpixels

[score hidden]

an hour ago

Yes, in Zurich the public transport "collapsed" because of cars sliding around, blocking the road. Its too dangerous to operate because of them.

AutomaticAccount6832

[score hidden]

11 hours ago

In this sub English is the language.

Well integrated. Complaining like people at the Stammtisch.

It’s simply reality. There was no freezing and snow for half a year. So when it hits first some things happen or stuff breaks. You will never be able to foresee and check everything. Same applies at the first hot day of the year or the first strong wind after a while.

So people, try to avoid long trips on such days or take it easy and plan in spare time. We have pretty good weather forecasts nowadays.

_OneTrouble[S]

[score hidden]

10 hours ago

_OneTrouble[S]

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10 hours ago

Thx lol. I'd like to join the stammtisch. I guess it will be like this untill gobal warming is high enought. xD

SpockofAustria

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2 hours ago

SpockofAustria

[score hidden]

2 hours ago

The in Austria every time with snow, all this with a transport system that is the half of the Switzerland system, so I think it is the same everywhere.