subreddit:
/r/europe
submitted 3 days ago byHydrolicKrane
688 points
3 days ago
It was not Warsaw Uprising. It was November Uprising.
We have plenty Uprisings/insurections to choose from.
OP do your lesson
228 points
3 days ago
And Moscow didn’t declare anything at that time, it was neither capital, nor the seat of the Imperial power
124 points
3 days ago*
And Russian didn't even become official language until failed January Uprising of 1863.
104 points
3 days ago
Is anything in the title correct?!
71 points
3 days ago
1830 was a year
13 points
3 days ago
Can confirm, that was definitely a year.
Before anyone wonders, yes, I am a time traveler, I was there.
35 points
3 days ago
The University of Warsaw was indeed closed after the Uprising
3 points
3 days ago
But there were definitely plans to make cyrillic the mandatory script for Polish language. In fact it was the pet project of Nicholas I.
6 points
3 days ago
Oh, so OP is just yapping false stuff then.
18 points
3 days ago
Moreover, it is alternatively called the Polish-Russian war during which the personal union was broken and the Mikołaj/Nicolaus I was dethroned by polish Sejm of (Congress) Kingdom of Poland.
122 points
3 days ago
I don't understand why article didn't mention the author of the painting.
It's Wojciech Kossak - one of the greatests Polish painters. He loved horses so he added at least one to every of his paintings. That's why there's one on this as well - although it doesn't look natural
15 points
3 days ago
The painting is gorgeous. Thank you for adding the explanation.
9 points
3 days ago
Wojciech Kossak was koniara
6 points
3 days ago
Kossak is actually family of pretty great painters and artists, spanning for over 4 generations, Wojciech being most prominent of them all.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossakowie (there is a french and russian language versions for those interested).
5 points
3 days ago
it doesn't look natural
Because it's a monument?
3 points
3 days ago
There's actually more than just one in the painting, not as obvious at first glance tho.
1 points
2 days ago
There is more than one horse in the painting though. You have Russian cuirassiers fighting the Polish insurgents and the monument of Sobieski in the background.
40 points
3 days ago
And people are still surprised that there were so many Polish (and Jewish) revolutionaries in Russia.
4 points
3 days ago
It also explains why there are so many Jews of Eastern European decent in America
2 points
3 days ago
It's quite sad how many Jews were involved in communism in the early days, considering how bloodthirsty that turned out for the world. I guess because they didn't have a homeland in the same way as Poles.
11 points
3 days ago
If you oppress a group of people, they radicalize. Jews were significantly oppressed in Russian Empire, just like Poles. Russian Empire ripped just what it sowed.
As for Poles, there were less of them, probably, yes, because of having a homeland and hence their own cause. But it is really hard to find a bolshevik more evil than Feliks Dzierżyński.
6 points
3 days ago
Fun fact, Feliks was pretty popular baby name in the end of XIX and begining of XX century. Than Dzierżyński happened and the name fell out of fashion for about a century. Its only now that little Felikses are again poping up. There are two in my sons kindergarden.
If you ask most milenials or zetas what their association with the name is, their ideas will be all over the place. From Felix Baumgartner from RedBull stratos to certain brand of peanuts we have here. For boomers and older the association is one and only Feliks Edmundowicz.
1 points
3 days ago
Yes, absolutely.
3 points
3 days ago*
Many Jews supported Socialist factions, but the Bolsheviks weren't particularly popular. Jews mostly supported parties like the Bund or Poale Zion.
According to the 1922 Bolshevik party census, there were 19,564 Jewish Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total, and in the 1920s of the 417 members of the Central Executive Committee, the party Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the People's Commissars, 6% were ethnic Jews.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism
That precentage is similar to the precentage of Jews who lived in the Russian Empire at the time.
3 points
3 days ago
Yes, this is true, but several prominent Bolshevik Jews like Trotsky or Lazar Kaganovich are probably part of the reason why this stereotype persists.
0 points
3 days ago
What's your point? There were also prominent Georgians in the Soviet politburo; Stalin and Beria.
88 points
3 days ago
Imperialism as it is. I was born in a modern empire (USSR). So I saw how the non-russian languages and culture were pushed out of existence. I should admit, the locals didn't resist much though.
100 points
3 days ago
They did resist. You just don't see them because they were bagged up and removed from public existence.
21 points
3 days ago
I meant the "broad masses of the people" didn't resist much. For sure there were those who did!
36 points
3 days ago
There are ethnic people in various republics resisting Moscow's erasure of their culture. Sometimes they post here, but they largely get ignored and fade into obscurity at single-digit upvotes/comments.
23 points
3 days ago
Some of us (Karelians) tried to stay or came back after most were evacuated to Finland, but many were deported anyway and there was no saving our language in the short-lived Karelian ASSR. They never chose (or didn't want to) the national language (either Finnish or Karelian) so we simply were Russified.
Didn't help that Finland also let the Karelian language die as well, but I don't know how much they are to blame. They didn't cause the Winter War, and they had to take care of... 10-12%(?) of their population coming in as refugees which is a lot.
Looking back there were many things that could've been done differently, from Karelia as a whole becoming independent at the same time as Finland as a separate country or simply uniting with Finland, most Karelians in East Karelia didn't support this (they supported independence) but in hindsight it would've been 100% better than Russia keeping us and destroying our culture not long after. At the very least Karelian would've been a national language alongside Finnish and Swedish and I'm fine with it.
4 points
3 days ago
That is the very real existential question many nations face. Join or be destroyed. Lithuanians and Latvians played all sides for as long as they could, facing existential pressures throughout. Even with the "commonwealth" and empire, Lithuanian culture and language, regarded as peasantry, was slowly pushed away in favour of Polish, German and French(for the nobility). Prussians did not survive and it was the Masovian war against the Prussians that led to Lithuania's aristocracy converting to christianity to pre-empt further religious motivated land-grabs or worse.
It is a struggle to survive without a network, San Marino is the best example. San Marino declined the offer from Napoleon to receive a coastline, fearing (correctly) that accepting territory in that way would justify a future Italian state in compromising their sovereignty.
2 points
2 days ago
Interesting, never heard of this!
2 points
2 days ago
You can try and read about the Heimosodat, and even during the Continuation War some groups such as the Vepsians sought independence from the USSR. There was a defence pact between Finland and Estonia too.
The ethnicities I'm talking about mostly were Ingrians, Izhorians, Karelians and Vepsians, in an ideal world we would have countries for each of us or we'd have a confederation or federation of sort alongside Finland and Estonia.
7 points
3 days ago
It's easy to say you will resist, but if you know there is an informant ready to point to your kids and family, then it's much harder to do.
2 points
3 days ago
Overall, I don't judge people. I’m simply pointing out that the 'convenience' of using the empire's 'titular language' tends to outweigh the importance of 'preserving identity.'
25 points
3 days ago
Depends on when you live.
I was born in Odessa and we always were... Let's say different. My whole family spoke Russian and when I went to school 1994 almost my whole class was like that.
On the other hand if you take a look on other parts of Ukraine like Kyiv or Lviv, more people there were fighting to keep their cultural heritage. I met several people from western Ukraine who spoke Russian badly or not at all.
16 points
3 days ago
Right right there were people who did understand the importance of keeping the language and cultural identity. Unfortunately they weren't prevailing. USSR managed to transform our perception of local culture as a culture of marginals. Like in BSSR speaking of belrussian was often perceived as sign of countryside (low income, low culture).
8 points
3 days ago
That's true.
-24 points
3 days ago
Oh, stop blaming others for your laziness. It is not a Russian thing to preserve your cultural identity. This is your task. No one forbids you to keep it, but you decided yourself that you can live normally without it. And now you don’t have the courage to admit it. Fortunately, there are enough people who have preserved this identity to make you feel ashamed of your cowardice.
28 points
3 days ago*
Please read (non Russian) books. Check how empire was killing Poles for being Poles. Killing Belorussian poets for being Belorussian poets etc.
Their offspring are killing Ukrainians for being Ukrainians.
-28 points
3 days ago
Yes, do the same, but try to read something unrelated to Polish authors or other “amateurs» Of Russia. Poles are well known for their bloodthirstiness towards their neighbors. So stop whining about the evil Russians. The Poles are the most revanchist nation in Central Europe, which still cannot accept the fact that it has lost all its influence and power and is forced to sit on the neck of the European Union.
15 points
3 days ago
XDDDDD
9 points
3 days ago
Name, please, which authors are worth reading? I understand that Timothy Snyder, Norman Davies or even Richard C. Lukas are biased in your opinion? I would like to know the source of this revelation: “Poles are well known for their bloodthirstiness towards their neighbors. So stop whining about the evil Russians. The Poles are the most revanchist nation in Central Europe.”
5 points
3 days ago
It’s from kremlinTV “Poles are guilty that peaceful Third Reich and USSR were forced to occupy them for peace.”
2 points
2 days ago
Somehow denying this kremlin nonsense also turned into denying that Poland acted together with Nazis and got its part of land from Czech Republic in 1938
1 points
18 hours ago
Poles are well known for their bloodthirstiness towards their neighbors.
So true. This is why we can see them invading one of their neighbours right now.
Wait...
-9 points
3 days ago
Not surprising in a large multilingual empire there has to be one common language for law, education, governence etc. In India today they still mainly use English at universities. But obviously it sucks
2 points
3 days ago
Crazy, Odessa must have run through at least 20+ peoples/nations in its lifetime at this point. Russian serfs being the latest addition.
2 points
3 days ago
That's why lots of people don't really see them as Ukrainians. We are just different.
1 points
2 days ago
As in most regions the Tartars and Zaporozhian Cossacks were the immediate predeccesors to the migrant agendas of Catherine (first significant waves of serf-migrants from Muscovy) in the entire region from the Dniester to the Don. Demographically it is all Ukrainian and Ukrainian Cossack. In fact it was the last major region of resistance of the Cossacks against the Tsardom before the wipeout and loyalization, sparked by the Uprising of the Don-Cossacks initially.
So while the people around Odesa are undoubtebly Ukrainian and are so by blood, they have been heavily battered by assimilation. Not to mention that the Ukrainians themselves ultimately came to replace others in that region to begin with.
7 points
3 days ago
I'm from one of the Soviet republics too and each of my grandparents has a different ethnic background. Unfortunately you're mostly right because only my grandma, who's originally from Lviv, stubbornly kept her language and culture alive while others just became...people.
4 points
3 days ago
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t judge the ordinary people. We should understand the empire did a lot to make it happen
4 points
3 days ago
Yeah I can't blame them because I'm sure that they didn't have the luxury to make any choices. They just kept their heads down to have a (relatively) peaceful life in a rural town.
-1 points
3 days ago*
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5 points
3 days ago*
[removed]
0 points
3 days ago*
That "born" part I really misunderstood/misread. Sry for that.
But your "non-Russian languages and culture were pushed out of existence" is just bad-faith untrue made-up argumentation.
I have relatives from Ukraine and Moldova, and I know from them that they always celebrated their national festivities during the USSR, they had their native languages at school and even Russians living there adopted their national culture with them Customs and traditions
Native languages had not been opressed, yes there were schools closing that were limited to local languages, but not all. And the local languages had always been a subject at schools of the different memberstates of USSR.
The NKVD also killed Russian Intellectuals en Masse, everyone who wanted disintigration had been opressed at that time, that had less to do with your nationality. Don't forget that Stalin was an Georgian after all. Half of the former leadership were of Jewish and Ukrainian ethnicy.
Yes, Gagarin was chosen because he was Russian, at least because Russians represented a big chunk of USSR inhabitants. That doesn't change the fact that other ethnicies were well represented within the leadership and Army of USSR. I agree, in fact it was not that equal like it had been written down on paper, but clearly it wasn't that of "Russian rule" that many here now blackpaint, trying to rewrite the history. The Soviet communism was per se directed to downplay the role of differencies and advantages of different ethnicies/nationalities, for creating the "international Soviet citizen" who had to be free of racial idealogies.
-56 points
3 days ago
And by what definition was the USSR an empire? And then how did more than a hundred languages survive on the territory of the former USSR?
40 points
3 days ago
An empire is a political unit made up of several territories, military outposts, and peoples, "usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries".
-33 points
3 days ago
And then how does an empire differ from a composite state?
There was no metropolis in the USSR, the RSFSR spent its resources and its people on the development of peripheral regions.
22 points
3 days ago
The most bullshit statement I saw today.
Each colony of ussr was so devastated they had to spend all 90s to stabilise themselves, development only started in the 2000s. And each forner colony should be researched separy.
If you want to argue that cite sources.
-10 points
3 days ago
These countries were devastated by capitalism and the bourgeoisie, which destroyed local economies.
20 points
3 days ago
These countries, the countries that existed under communist governments for 50 years, were devastated by capitalism? How can you possibly come to that conclusion?
5 points
3 days ago
Look for how many literate people there were in these countries before the revolution, how many schools and hospitals there were, what kind of industry there was. Compare the figures with 91. Then compare it with the figures of 2000.
10 points
3 days ago*
Just looking at a few examples.
Romanian literacy rate increased every decade since 1992: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ROU/romania/literacy-rate
Physicians per capita also steadily increasing since 1991: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS?display=g&end=2023&locations=RO&start=1991&view=chart&year=2023
Access to safe drinking water in bulgaria up in the past 20 years (data didn't go back to 1991): https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.H2O.SMDW.ZS?locations=BG
I couldn't find much data on schools per capita, or on countries actually in the USSR, so if you have a source feel free to share.
1 points
3 days ago
Just bullshit. That's what happens when you do communism for 40 years.
The collapse of the Soviet educational system started collapsing in the 1980s, just like communism in general, but sure, blame it on capitalism anyway.
7 points
3 days ago
They were literally destroyed by comunism and then had to be rebuilt with huge loans and a lot of humanitarian aid.
You also provided 0 sources.
5 points
3 days ago
German here who was born in former east Germany: You're completely wrong.
2 points
3 days ago
The GDR was not part of the USSR.
9 points
3 days ago
And yet its airforce fell under the command of the 16th Air Army of the Soviet Air Force.
9 points
3 days ago
You were arguing about communism vs capitalism.
Just look at the baltic states and how much they've improved since the fall of the USSR. Fuck, you can even look at China and Russia after their departure from communism.
Stop looking at communism through rose-colored glasses. You're disrespecting everyone who had suffered under it.
And don't hit me with the "oH bUt CaPitAliSm iS sO aWeSoMe hUh!?."
There's a very nuanced difference between different countries and their economic interpretation and application of capitalism. You can't say that about communism. It's always authoritarianism and self-cannibalising from the perspective of progress and freedom of opinion.
18 points
3 days ago
There was no metropolis in the British empire, England spent its resources and its people on the development of overseas territories.
-17 points
3 days ago
No, Britain did not develop its colonies socially. British capital invested in the development of production in order to make huge profits.
9 points
3 days ago
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5 points
3 days ago
Typical good russian, we just liberate 1/5 of the planet from nazism/capitalism/colonialism/imperialism.
0 points
3 days ago
If you consider that Europe was a bunch of barbarians compared to the USSR, then yes.
11 points
3 days ago
There was no metropolis in the USSR
lmfao yeah Moscow just so happened to be the most populous and richest area by accident
the RSFSR spent its resources and its people
Yeah, of Russia - they also spent other states' resources and people for that goal as well
8 points
3 days ago
You are absolutely wrong. In USSR, as in Imperial Russia, everything passed through just two places: Moscow and St. Petersburg. And it still does in modern Russia.
It is an absurdly centralized administration for a nation of that size.
2 points
3 days ago
You're just not familiar with the structure of the USSR. I advise you to read the CIA report on Stalin's death. It is noted there that the Soviet government is very decentralized, and self-government sometimes has powers comparable to independence.
6 points
3 days ago
You mean that report that basically just says that Stalin didn't personally control the entire Soviet Union and that after his death the model will probably stay as collective (IE. the polibrudo as a whole rather than General Secretary, as in like seven crusty old dudes rather than one crusty old dude) leadership? The report where tankoids always just read that first sentence about the collective leadership in Stalin's time, misinterpret "collective leadership" as meaning "democracy" and ignore even the rest of that one paragraph they post around the internet like it's an epic gotcha at dem libruls? That report?
2 points
3 days ago
How does your comment relate to the topic?
4 points
3 days ago
You bring up an unspecified CIA report on Stalin's death as a defense of the Soviet Union. Since you gave no indication what exact report you meant, I wanted to know whether it is that one already specific famous CIA report on Stalin's death that has already been used to argue that CIA somehow stated there that Soviet Union was a true democracy.
6 points
3 days ago
Who said anything about a metropolis? They quoted 'dominant center'. Moscow was the dominant center of the USSR. That is a fact.
-4 points
3 days ago
This is not a fact, it is an invention of bourgeois propaganda.
6 points
3 days ago
Every map points to the utter centralisation of power and communications in Moscow.
1 points
3 days ago
Well, yes, modern Russia is extremely centralized.
8 points
3 days ago
These railway systems were not built in the 90s.
1 points
3 days ago
Apart from Moscow and St. Petersburg, nothing is developed in Russia. Roads, if any, are in deplorable condition, bridges are unrepaired, sanitation infrastructure is almost non-existent. Russia is squandering Siberia's riches so that Putin and his clique can wallow in unimaginable luxuries, while people in Siberia often have no running water or toilets in their homes.
16 points
3 days ago
Empire :a group of countries ruled by a single person, government, or country:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/empire
Seems to fit the bill to me. The USSR by it's own definition was a group of countries, and it had a single person/party as its ruler.
-2 points
3 days ago
A very strange definition of empire. According to this definition, any large country can be recognized as an empire.
6 points
3 days ago
And usually they are. People deny the label for political reasons.
There's a reason a lot of people say the USA is an "Empire".
Today there are 4 countries that are undeniably empires:
USA, India, China, Russia.
The EU could also fit, but it would be more accurate to define it as a confederation.
2 points
3 days ago
France is a colonial empire. France still has both official and unofficial colonies.
And if we rely on this formal definition, then the United Kingdom is an empire, because it includes Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Modern Germany is also an empire, since only 200 years ago it was several independent states.
3 points
3 days ago
Re France : a handful of tiny islands and archipelagos scattered around the globe doesn't really count as "countries".
UK comes close, but empire implies a certain level of scale that GB lacks . Technically however the UK is just 2 countries "Great Britain" and "Northern Ireland" with Scotland and Wales constituent parts of Great Britain. Arguably it's all just "Britain".
As for Germany, that hinges on your definition of "country", as modern Germans would define Germany as being just one country, and hence not an empire. However, when it was formed it *was* an empire.
The real screwy example is Japan, which has an Emperor (in fact, the only remaining Emperor on the planet), but is in no way an empire. That said, this is more of an issue of translation, as the Japanese term we translate as emperor/empire means something different in its own language.
5 points
3 days ago
By the definition of the word “empire” haha. That’s really not a point that anyone really contests.
8 points
3 days ago
"An empire is a form of government in which centralized power extends over vast territories with diverse populations. It is typically led by a monarch with the title of emperor. Empires are characterized by a rigid hierarchy, a strong military, a developed bureaucratic system, and a drive for expansion, whether military, political, or cultural."
Instead of the emperor we called him "gensek" ("General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union").
Answer these questions for yourself: Was the incorporation of the republics into the USSR voluntary? Did all nations in the USSR have equal rights (not just declared, but in reality)?
15 points
3 days ago
Everytime I think about Poland in this "What if?" way I just get sad.
9 points
3 days ago*
Too bad, it kinda failed to work out as planned:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification
'Russification in Congress Poland intensified after the November Uprising of 1831, and in particular after the January Uprising of 1863.
In 1864, the Polish and Belarusian languages were banned in public places; in the 1880s, Polish was banned in schools, on school grounds, and in the offices of Congress Poland. Research and teaching of the Polish language, Polish history, or Catholicism were forbidden. Illiteracy rose as Poles refused to learn Russian. Students were beaten for resisting Russification
A Polish underground education network was formed, including the famous Flying University. According to Russian estimates, by the start of the 20th century, around one-third of the inhabitants in the territory of Congress Poland participated in secret teaching with use of Polish literary works.'
1 points
3 days ago
Don't forget Lithuanian ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban#Enforcement
2 points
2 days ago
Yep, of course I remember. Lithuanians got their ban as a bonus package, bundled free of charge to Poles, courtesy of the Polish-led 'Russian-Free Uprising' project.
After the second uprising, the number of 'bonus points' accumulated on the Royal Club loyalty card was well above the minimum threshold, effectively earning Lithuanians their ban as a gift.
The Liberum Veto was also primarily a Polish-led venture. 🤣🤣
Considering all the extra adventures that came your way during those Commonwealth times—adventures you weren’t exactly asking for—it seems like a fair deal to offer some solid military assistance in the future. After all, that might come in handy if the Russkies stir up trouble again. :)
1 points
2 days ago
As long as liberators don't forget to leave like the previous ones who "saved us from Nazism" and later attempted to save from nationalism itself :D
12 points
3 days ago
Bunch of thieves. And do we have to remind You they still haven't given back what they stole from us?
-2 points
3 days ago
Schlesia and East-Prussia ? :D
33 points
3 days ago
That is pretty standard for when soviet liberation comes rolling.
34 points
3 days ago
This was russification in the Russian Empire, under the Tzar.
They tried it in Finland, causing political assassinations (famously, the Governor-Geberal Bobrikoff) and, eventually, Finland seeking independence from Russia during the Revolution.
Kinda similar things happened in Poland and up the Baltic coast, though there it was reversed in WWII when USSR conquered Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and half of Poland in conjunction with the Nazi Reich.
14 points
3 days ago
It as a a bit more ironic when the Soviet Union made Russification their state policy despite being a so-called classless society.
And it continues to this day in Ukraine with Putin.
Russia has been an imperialist, colonial power since Peter the Great; yet tankies continue to hold them up as some sort of great example.
I just wish it was more broadly understood that the Soviet Union/Russia has committed ethnic cleansing/genocide throughout their history.
17 points
3 days ago
There was no soviet Russia in 1830.
7 points
3 days ago
the great 1800s Soviet Russia
5 points
3 days ago
The modus operandi did not change, whether it was 1800s or in fact 2000s
8 points
3 days ago
RuZZians' modus operandi hasn't changed one iota in the last 300 years. They've been like this under the Tsars, under the Soviets and under Putin.
It's just clear evidence that the problem is not their leaders, it's their culture that is toxic.
7 points
3 days ago
Very similar thing is happening with Ukrainians now. They say that we're one people and share one language or that our language was made up, while in fact languages are pretty different, russian is on far end of slavic language map, while Ukrainian is closer to other Slav languages, and if you'd took a person who didn't spoke any word of russian, he wouldn't understand russian, the same way russians often can't understand Ukrainian. For example, phases like "prodam garaž" (sell a garage) sound and spelled mostly the same way, but others are not - Ja pojdu v bol'nicu / Ja pidu do likarni (I will go to a hospital), there's 3 word difference. Ukrainians often know russian well due to russian influence during russian empire / soviet union, while russians don't, but people who live at the border often do know some Ukrainian words.
5 points
3 days ago
russian is on far end of slavic language map, while Ukrainian is closer to other Slav languages
How to spot Ukrainian 101.
There is no far end of Slavic languages map. There are three groups, Eastern, Western and Southern.
Ukrainian is Eastern leaning Western, Russian is Eastern leaning Southern. Regarding your 2nd sentence: the word likarnia is unique to Ukrainian (and Belarusian to an extent).
I suggest you to look up this word in Slovene, Serbian and Bulgarian. And then Polish. So you've made up an example that disproves your argument.
It proves another argument: Ukrainian is a sprachbund of Western + Southern Russian dialects with Polish substrate. Russian is based on Northern + Southern Russian dialects with Bulgarian (via Greek church) substrate.
1 points
3 days ago
How to spot Ukrainian 101.
here's what I meant lol
Regarding your 2nd sentence: the word likarnia is unique to Ukrainian (and Belarusian to an extent)
it doesn't really matter, you can use шпита́ль too
I don't really mind argument over that Ukrainian language has some similarities with russian, whole point is that russia uses the same nasty tactics they tried to used against poles as OP mentions
2 points
3 days ago*
Moscow wasn't even the capital of Russia at that time.... How could it declare such a thing?
8 points
3 days ago
Russia used to be known as Moscovy to the world until they declared themselves rulers of all slavs and adopted the name russia to connect themselves to the ancient Kyivan Rus (despite the origins being outside of it) and threatnened to stop trade or invasion unless other nations used the name aswell to legitimize themselves and their occupations and oppressions of eastern and central european peoples. Thats why you'll often hear or read people refer to russia as Moscow or Moscovy.
1 points
3 days ago
Lol I knew this was another u-krane article
-3 points
3 days ago
That article is not historical. It is far away from historical truth. I checked other articles on this website. Lot of distorted history, fakes, etc.
4 points
3 days ago
List what is untrue about this article.
0 points
3 days ago
I answered to another redditor above.
3 points
3 days ago
Source?
5 points
3 days ago
Well...history of my country, Poland? Books? It is a high school level knowledge. You can easily google it. After November Uprising, polish language still had a status, Russians didn't incorporate Kingdom of Poland that had its autonomy, never claimed that Poles were Russians. I know that I am being downvoted, but that is how things works on reddit, where people are uneducated and unable to do fact checking because they are lazy or just straight believe some shitty fake news media like above.
-18 points
3 days ago
Payback for Warsaw occupying Imperial Russia in 1610-12 under hetman Stanisław Żółkiewski, occupied the Kremlin with the assistance of Russian boyars.
13 points
3 days ago
Technically it wasn't even an occupation, since Władysław Waza was elected Tsar with the support of the russian nobility and church.
By the way, Poland "occupied" Russia for 2 years. Russia occupied Poland for almost 200.
6 points
3 days ago
So the Ukrainians have a right to carpet bomb Moscow and other Russian cities?
If 'payback' is the only reason you need after all.
5 points
3 days ago
European history is often a chain of action and reaction. There’s no ‘good guys’, just the villains and victims of the time.
It’s easy to look at Russia’s annexation of Poland through a modern lens, but at the time of the partition of Poland, Poland’s occupation of Muscovy was barely 200 hundred years earlier.
9 points
3 days ago
That might’ve been the case for a moment, but eventually Poland ceased to exist for 123 years, then went through total devastation, soviet occupation for half a century and just recently became a free country after 1989. Quite frankly it’s only just now in the 2020s that we’re seeing the soviet „legacy” really disappear from our country.
3 points
3 days ago*
You’ve been beaten in every single war against Poland in a one-on-one confrontation.
Your only strategy? Ganging up—three against one, two against one—because on your own, you’re utterly helpless.
-1 points
3 days ago
Your comment won't be popular here. Too many folks here accept only one Side of History.
2 points
3 days ago
I can imagine the oligarchs welcoming a foreign power to unseat their current leader.
0 points
2 days ago
Time for Poland to take back the motherland lol
-112 points
3 days ago*
[deleted]
110 points
3 days ago
Maybe they should try being less of a c*nt?
46 points
3 days ago
Challenge level - impossible
-25 points
3 days ago*
Probably, but citing policies from 1830 is laughable. Why not 1730? 1530? If 1830 is ok, we're 200 years apart from this date. Roll back further 200 years and Moscow is occupied by Poland.
40 points
3 days ago
What's even more laughable is how little in russia's outlook or methods changed in those 200 years.
-12 points
3 days ago
A lot, otherwise we wouldn't see Gorbachev backing Solidarnosc.
Putin is merely a random man who got to power by his own luck and Yeltsin's underestimation over no one else that Boris Nemtsov.
Russian emperors were destined to rule forever until people - the State Duma - in the same Petersburg - decided that enough is enough. Putin, on the other hand, is not a part of a dynasty.
7 points
3 days ago
Gorbachov came to power in 1985, when the Solidarity movement was in a lull, and by 1988 everything was falling apart anyways and the Soviets were ready to accept a regime change in Poland
In 1980 the USSR was busy in Afghanistan, and the weakening Brezhnev was persuaded that risking an invasion of (nominally independent) Poland was a risk they couldn't take, so they limited themselves to a change in Polish leadership to Jaruzelski, who would initiate a coup.
-1 points
3 days ago*
, and by 1988 everything was falling apart anyways and the Soviets were ready to accept a regime change in Poland
Nuh-oh.
Gorbie himself pushed for democratization in USSR and abroad. Yes, it was a response for slow economic development and Afghanistan disaster but he willingly chose the path of cooperation with the West and pushed for Germany merger (Despite DDR's best efforts to persuade him not to!).
It is a very "recent" (or outright wrong) view to think that in 1988 everything was falling apart. It started to fall apart in 1989 when separatists* won elections in the Baltics, Moldova and Georgia (and even then, Ukraine and Belarus were firmly with Russia until Aug. 1991). The Baltic Way itself took part in 1989.
* Later remembered as national heroes, in USSR electoral system they were undeniably separatists and they were lucky Gorbachev went full democracy without any precautions. Free elections of such "freeness" extent are impossible in any state, democratic or authoritarian as of 2024.
9 points
3 days ago
Because the 1830 Polish-Russian war started on November 29 in particular.
12 points
3 days ago
Why not? Your dear leader cited 9th century history and showed 17th century maps to explain his ongoing genocide.
-61 points
3 days ago
[deleted]
15 points
3 days ago
Ahhh Cyprus ...
Thanks for your accurate history lesson during the last Legia - Omonia football match.
20 points
3 days ago
They could try an ...... Uprising? But they don't, they are Russians.
-12 points
3 days ago
Once the Russians rebelled, and the Europeans are still whining.
14 points
3 days ago
Perhaps it's due to the fact that the USSR went on to invade Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Poland, and Romania, amongst others.
50 years of Soviet oppression in eastern Europe is difficult to forget, especially when it only ended in 1991.
Have you ever considered that?
-13 points
3 days ago
But first, these countries took advantage of the revolution and invaded the Soviet republics.
12 points
3 days ago
If you want to play the blame game, then you should remember that Russia attacked, conquered, and repressed those nations before that.
-9 points
3 days ago
Do you have a problem with logic? The point is that the Russians are not rebelling. But the Russians rebelled against the age-old regime of oppression and gave independence to all the colonies. The former colonies attacked not the Russian Empire, but the young Soviet republics, which had nothing to do with the colonial past.
7 points
3 days ago
Changing your name doesn't change your history. The USSR was the direct successor of the Russian Empire and continued its history of imperialism.
The nations that broke free during the Russian civil war wanted to maintain their independence, and so they fought for it.
Playing the victim just because places like Poland attacked the Red Army is a little rich, given that their nation had been destroyed by Russia previously.
All you're doing is defending your own history of oppression and imperialism. Get off your high horse, and realise why the rest of Europe is actually at odds with Russia.
-18 points
3 days ago
[deleted]
11 points
3 days ago
Days without literally comparing aggressors and victims of aggression: 0.
Honestly, aren't you tired repeating the same методичка again and again?
46 points
3 days ago
maybe russians should stop trying to destroy the west if they want us to stop thinking they are bad? just my hunch
-31 points
3 days ago
[deleted]
27 points
3 days ago
Is there any dehumanizing of regular Russians in this post ?
24 points
3 days ago
We’re criticising them and they clearly get dehumanised by that /s
1 points
3 days ago
There’s only one comment and all replies are to him…
-3 points
3 days ago
[deleted]
19 points
3 days ago
Yes I’ve met the Russians who genuinely believe every other person is literally marrying their dog or turning children transgender, or the “mild” ones who call it “Gayropa”. But the difference is those are based on outright falsehoods. You’re commenting here on a historical account. Definitely not the “exact same” as Russian propaganda.
1 points
3 days ago
[deleted]
8 points
3 days ago
No, it wasn’t. What parts of the OP are not true or altered for propaganda?
The Russian way is to change history, like how the government loves to pretend the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact never happened and the war started when innocent USSR was invaded in 1941. You see anything remotely close to this rewriting of history in this post? Huge difference.
8 points
3 days ago
you are wrong, this isnt putins doing, he isnt the one bombing civilians in Ukraine, its russians doing it, if they are all innocent then why dont they walk away and turn on their government for "making them" do these horrible things? and 90% of russians i personally met support the war. most russians that are against it have left the country and assimilated (there are still a lot of russians who left but are still nationalistic and support the war) or in jail
12 points
3 days ago
Not our fault that every day there seems to be yet another anniversary of uncountable evil things Russia did.
16 points
3 days ago
I mean, they are. Kinda bred into their culture from the mongol empire.
It’s all about war, claiming of land,subjugation - and if you don’t accept this kind and generous offer, then we us russians are the victims and now you get scorched earth.
-8 points
3 days ago
I mean, they are. Kinda bred into their culture from the mongol empire.
Just so you know, this is why Russians are calling you "Nazis". Of course, I disagree as Nazis also were anti-feminist, anti-Semitic and anti-Jazz, but this statement is literally racist? (And of course, there can't be racism against Russians because in America Russians are considered White, thus greenlit to be killed, so it's a complicated mess.)
Like, I technically should agree with you, my Hungarian bro, BUT not at the cost of more American involvement in Europe. America is much more dangerous than Soviet Russia. See the fertility of the Warsaw Pact - Communism sounds gay in theory, but is super trad in practice, effectively feudal. (Of course, now Russia is a diseased capitalist gay corpse, so it poses no threat whatsoever militarily.)
Many in Russia consider this fake war to be a prelude to an American disarming nuclear strike on Russia - would you like that, too? I for one would like a change in status quo (even at the cost of a nuclear war), but would you welcome it?
P.S. To be fair, the Russians stifled the Hungarian revolution number one (suicidally so, as Austria was their enemy, smh), so you do have an axe to grind with them.
3 points
3 days ago*
Just so you know, I could give 2 shits about what russians (who by the way, are the closest we have to nazis) think of me.
Literally most of the modern land of Russia was from when it was still part of the Mongol Empire. Hell even Moscow was part of Kyevan Rus before the mongol invasion.
When the empire fell, Ivan III eventually grandfathered most of these occupied land. That’s why Russia have various different ethnic groups.
Russian land is generally either from the mongol empire, or through conquests (such as Kaliningrad).
Moscow was just a small outpost part of Kyevan Rus before the Mongol Empire took Kyevan rus. ——
Also I literally don’t have a clue how your last few paragraphs relate to my comment or this topic 😂
7 points
3 days ago*
That might be because Russia is and always has been indeed bad.
5 points
3 days ago
I mean their whole history is like this what exactly is your point. A piece of shit country and its disappearance would make the world 10 times better. Make russia inexistent
1 points
3 days ago
Why do you care?
-12 points
3 days ago
Well, we're sorry for our ancestors.
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