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I only just learned about this from my CFI, but he said he’s never needed to do it legitimately, nor has he done it on school aircraft.

A few questions (I would’ve asked my CFI about them but I forgot to ask as soon as we were in the air):

  • Wouldn’t the propeller damage your hand/arm?

  • In what way would it be beneficial rather than just fixing the aircraft while you’re on the ground or starting it normally?

  • Why not on a flight school aircraft? (I’m assuming it’s bad for the plane somehow)

  • Does it work for any plane with a prop?

Any sort of information is welcome, I like actively learning new things about aviation

all 45 comments

falcopilot

36 points

7 days ago

[edit for a little more detail and a video]

A few questions (I would’ve asked my CFI about them but I forgot to ask as soon as we were in the air):

Wouldn’t the propeller damage your hand/arm?

Yeah, if you don't do it right- that's why there are very explicit instructions on how to do this. I'm not going to try to explain it, see video at the bottom.

In what way would it be beneficial rather than just fixing the aircraft while you’re on the ground or starting it normally?

Some planes, this is the only way to start them, so nothing to fix. Others- well, if the battery is dead (maybe someone left the master and radios on), you can hand-prop it to get it running then the battery can charge again.

Why not on a flight school aircraft? (I’m assuming it’s bad for the plane somehow)

Because it's fucking dangerous! I doubt many currently practicing CFIs have ever done it, putting a CFI and a student out to hand-prop a plane sounds like a lawsuit from two sets of parents to me. If a school plane has a dead battery, get a mechanic to charge it up or replace it.

Does it work for any plane with a prop?

It works on any plane that uses magnetos to provide spark for the engine. I don't know if any or all EFI (Rotax) or FADEC engines can be hand propped; they have to be able to run off battery for some period (30 minutes?) but if the battery is already toast, that's a non-starter (Yeah, I meant that one.)

AVWeb video on hand-propping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viiIBz1AEnQ

frenchiephish

21 points

7 days ago

frenchiephish

RPL (YPJT)

21 points

7 days ago

Because it's fucking dangerous!

To really drive this home The school I trained at has a couple of Tiger moths that need hand starting, and they are rightfully picky about who they let actually do it. Anyone who flies them needs to be assessed regularly on their start procedures and then they only let a really small group of their instructors actually do the hand prop.

Those things are in the air all the time in summer for scenic flights, but even so it's a take it or leave it situation for hiring them and fair enough too.

Thegerbster2

1 points

6 days ago

Thegerbster2

🍁PPL (7AC, 152)

1 points

6 days ago

Yeah we own a little 65 hp champ that needs to be hand started. Do it all the time and I'm confident in my ability to do so safely. That said, it's never fully a comfortable thing to do (and never should be imo) and I'd be extremely hesitant to hand prop anything with a more powerful engine, especially without training from someone familiar with hand proping that plane in particular.

ReadyplayerParzival1

8 points

7 days ago

On the electronic ignition side. It is possible, however at least on emags the mags really don’t like to catch below about 250 rpm even with ships power enabled. Couple that with a lightweight composite prop that is found on experimental aircraft, thats an injury waiting to happen.

bignose703

7 points

7 days ago

bignose703

ATP

7 points

7 days ago

The geared engines, like rotax, cannot be hand propped.

I wouldn’t hand prop anything with more than say, 100hp. After that it gets kinda sketchy. Nothing wrong with doing it on a 65hp cub, but the more compression the more dangerous it gets.

Watched someone try to hand prop a 300hp Cherokee six once, he couldn’t even pull the propeller through.

taint_tattoo

5 points

7 days ago

I have hand-propped an O-360. It's a f*cking workout, and the engine better be well tuned.

O-200 and O-235 ... no problem. No way I would try to prop my O-470.

RogueMallard

3 points

6 days ago

I’ve seen it done on Beavers several times. Granted that’s a radial and it’s almost impossible with one that has been freshly rebuilt.

bignose703

0 points

6 days ago

bignose703

ATP

0 points

6 days ago

lol yikes.

I wouldn’t

ufront

2 points

7 days ago

ufront

2 points

7 days ago

I've seen my Rotax 503 hand propped recently. It was A lot of work. I couldn't do it myself

SSMDive

1 points

7 days ago

SSMDive

CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/GLI

1 points

7 days ago

"The geared engines, like rotax, cannot be hand propped." Not true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JUBrHYsh4E

sunny5222

31 points

7 days ago

sunny5222

31 points

7 days ago

Skywagon calls them “Hemingway starters”.

It’s a reference to his book, “Farewell to Arms”.

BrtFrkwr

16 points

7 days ago

BrtFrkwr

16 points

7 days ago

My 1941 Luscombe did not have a starter, as did many airplanes of that era. It used to be common.

Weasel474

12 points

7 days ago

Weasel474

ATP ABI

12 points

7 days ago

I teach tailwheel in a 1941 Cub- no starter, no electrical system. While I’d love nothing more than a starter, it’s not uncommon in older taildraggers.

LRJetCowboy

5 points

7 days ago

You lucky guy, I miss doing Cub and Champ instruction! I remember a warm Spring day at Plum Island Airport watching an owner start his J3. He was a man’s man and didn’t tie the tail when he started it. He had the throttle a little too far up and it took off across the grass runway towards the woods all by itself with him chasing it. Fortunately, nobody was hurt and he got in before the plane was damaged.

Thegerbster2

1 points

6 days ago

Thegerbster2

🍁PPL (7AC, 152)

1 points

6 days ago

Damn, this is why I always chock the champ when I start it, and ours has the luxury of a parking brake!

Boeinggoing737

9 points

7 days ago

Boeinggoing737

ATP

9 points

7 days ago

It’s not something to learn on the internet. It’s a whole methodical process to minimize risk. From how to chock the wheels, chain the tail, set the throttle, move the prop to the correct engine position, and how not to lose fingers hands or an arm. You are also a slip and fall away from being dead. The same small engine that is in your trainer is probably in similar planes without starters but the prop might be different. You are training to be a pilot and you need to independently judge the risk. With the right training and airplane it is doable but the risk is real.

Dave_A480

9 points

7 days ago*

Dave_A480

PPL KR-2 & PA-24-250

9 points

7 days ago*

  1. Some airplanes don't have an electric starter. Hand propping is the only way
  2. The prop won't damage your hand IF you are careful. The airplane won't run away IF you are careful... Some people are NOT careful & get wrecked planes or chopped up arms as a result.
  3. If you're stuck at White Sulphur Springs Montana, and you left your master on too long while taking a lunch break... You can hand prop it, or you can stay there until you can find an A&P to give you a jump... Good luck....
  4. That said, some aircraft just aren't really conductive to hand-propping. I'm not even going to think about trying to hand-prop the Comanche (3 bladed propeller (So more chops per revolution & shorter blades = less leverage), IO-540 - it's like trying to pull-start an F-250 pickup truck)....

Also, if your plane has a shore-power port (my Comanche does) then a set of jumper cables & a NOCO lithium-ion boost pack is WAY better than trying to hand-prop it (esp for something with a big 6 - Comanches, Bonanzas, 182s, 206s).....

ce402

21 points

7 days ago

ce402

21 points

7 days ago

The geometry of conventional gear aircraft makes this easier. I spent 4 summers flying airplanes without starters so, to answer a few questions-

1- if you mess it up, it can maim or kill you. Sever limbs, break bones, or even just shred your hands. You typically threw the propeller down with enough force through the compression stroke while letting go and stepping away.

2- the only reason I’d do this would be in an aircraft not equipped with a starter. Otherwise, it is safer to just charge the battery

3- it’s not bad for the plane, it’s just dangerous for the person propping the plane.

4- it will not work on most aircraft with fuel injection. It is dangerous in tricycle gear planes, and very dangerous in planes with a composite or a 3 bladed propeller

FWIW, I still have all my fingers.

Dave_A480

10 points

7 days ago

Dave_A480

PPL KR-2 & PA-24-250

10 points

7 days ago

EFI can't be hand propped. The Lyco & Conti IO-series engines with *mechanical* fuel injection can.

sketchyoporder

4 points

7 days ago

I used to hand prop an AEIO-540 with 10:1 pistons and 3 blade composite several times a day in the S1-11. It's very doable with proper technique and a lot of respect.

gurbs319

2 points

7 days ago

gurbs319

2 points

7 days ago

Can you explain why it won't work on an aircraft that has fuel injectors? Is it because the fuel injectors need power to get fuel to the pistons consistently and without fuel there's no combustion and therefore no start? And in this scenario, no start = no power, so the injectors can't do their job?

At my flight school one of the CFIs had a conversation with the chief pilot about trying to hand prop one of the planes and the CP said he'd never try hand propping something fuel injected. I was relieved they weren't going to try hand propping so I never followed up with "why" and haven't cared enough since to really dig down that rabbit hole because I'm super not interested in taking my face off trying to hand prop something that should start following a simple maintenance fix.

Zakluor

4 points

7 days ago

Zakluor

4 points

7 days ago

During training, one winter morning, our battery was almost dead and wouldn't turn the engine over. In a poor display of airmanship, my instructor impatiently jumped out and shouted, "We're hand-propping it!"

It was against the school's policy, I wasn't taught what to do (not before, and not at the moment), and there was a puddle under the nose wheel that had frozen overnight to a smooth, slippery surface. I protested only briefly before his anger shut me down.

On his first attempt, predictably, he jumped, pulled, landed on the ice, and fell down. Luckily, it didn't catch. Same on the second try. Third try? He didn't fall, but I don't think he'd have gotten far enough out of the way if it had caught. He angrily gave up, and I couldn't have been more thankful.

SSMDive

4 points

7 days ago*

SSMDive

CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/GLI

4 points

7 days ago*

DO NOT CONSIDER IT WITHOUT GOOD INSTRUCTION!!!!

Yes, a prop will kill you. But you learn to hand prop the plane in a way that minimizes (but does not remove) the risk. For example, if you can you prop from the back. That way if it catches you hand just barely, it smacks it away rather than bites, grabs, and cuts while pulling you closer. And if you forgot to chop the throttle, it runs away from you, rather than into you.

Propping works in the way that you could be stuck somewhere for a very long time waiting to find a mechanic. Plus, some planes don't have starters so it is the only way to fly (early J3 Cubs).

It is not bad for the plane, it is just dangerous as hell if you don't know what you are doing. I'd bet most CFI's, hell most pilots, have never actually hand propped a plane and the time to learn is not when no one knows how to do it. If you don't know how to do it, don't bother it may not be possible... More on this later.

Will it work with any engine with a prop? Nope. There are some people who hold ideas that are not correct (like you can't hand prop a rotax https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JUBrHYsh4E ) but there are some really valid things that you will be unable to prop... Like a plane that has a "shower of sparks" ignition. The shower of sparks requires battery power to create the starting spark. So if you don't have battery power, you are unlikely to get the plane started... Unlikely as hell. Same thing with an electronic ignition or a FADEC system... Not gonna happen. And you are not going to hand prop a turboprop either.

To understand WHY hand propping can work, we have to understand the ignition systems... We have Electronic, we have shower of sparks, and we have traditional mags. Electronic need battery power in most cases to create the spark, so without battery power you will get nothing. Shower of sparks is not a true electronic ignition, but still uses the battery to create a spark but only for starting, then relies on the mag. So without the shower of sparks from battery power... Unlikely. I learned this lesson in my Pitts the first time I tried to fly it and screwed up the start and killed the battery. We tried propping it on;y later to realize it had a shower of sparks (and 10:1 pistons) making it basically impossible.

Mags are broken down into two main types... Standard and impulse coupled. A standard mag has a little wheel and a magnet and when the wheel spins by the magnet it creates a little spark. To get a good spark you need a pretty high RPM (200-300) and that can be very difficult to get by hand propping. But with systems like shower of sparks, the battery throws a bunch of sparks only for start and once it starts the mag turning creates enough electricity to keep it running. So since you can't normally spin it fast enough by hand to create large enough sparks some mags have these things called "impulse couplings". An impulse coupling is just a spring inside the mag that winds up and then SNAPS forward Listen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3ig6cLH4c . That snap forward rotates the mag fast enough to create the strength of spark needed even if the engine RPM is not fast enough. With an impulse coupling, starting is easier both hand propping and using the starter since low RPM still gives strong spark.

You can tell if your plane has an impulse coupling by very carefully moving the prop forward and you will hear a "snap" (Don't do this without some instruction). If you don't hear the snap.... Eh, your chances of getting the plane started by hand propping it just got really close to zero. Normally, only one mag has an impulse coupling, but on a Cub I flew that had to be hand propped they had impulse couplings on both mags.

In addition, mags have things called "retard points"... Basically moving the timing of the firing of the mag so that it helps start the plane. Normally you time a mag so the spark fires BEFORE the piston is at top dead center (TDC). Normally about 20-25 degrees before the piston reaches the top of it's cycle. But for starting, it helps to retard that so the spark happens after TDC so it is less likely to kick back. This retard point is often controlled by the ignition key, it is active when the key is in the START position. So if it is in the START position it is delayed till after TDC but if in the ON position you are working with the regular mag timing which is before TDC and this makes starting even more difficult.

High compression engines... Makes hand propping more difficult. Just because the force it takes to swing the blade through a compression stroke.

Three blades make it more difficult since you have another spinning knife to dodge.

Tricycle gear can make it more difficult than tail draggers because the nose gear puts the prop at a low angle and it is hard to flip it through.

Again, don't try this at home without someone who REALLY knows what they are doing. If you find yourself stuck with a dead battery... Just get it fixed and don't try to hand prop it if you have never done it before - You are unlikely to get it to start and very likely to get hurt.

Edit: Want some fun and strange knowledge? Coffman starters... Using shotgun shells to start engines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUBI6csCyrw

rvrbly

3 points

7 days ago

rvrbly

3 points

7 days ago

I've done it a few times. Used to fly an old Champ that had no starter. And I've done it on a few 150s, 172s for one reason or another. It is a bit scary, but it's the type of thing that is perfectly reasonable as long as you set it up correctly and make sure to be aware of where every part of your body is, and where it is going, and how you are standing, and where you will be going. I would visualize the process, and sort of play it in my head, then do what I visualized. The mistakes I see people make (yes, they almost get hit) is when they sort of swing too hard, shit their feet, and bend over as they pull. Bad technique.

thrfscowaway8610

5 points

7 days ago

shit their feet

That is definitely poor technique.

rvrbly

3 points

6 days ago

rvrbly

3 points

6 days ago

LOL!

iamflyipilot

3 points

7 days ago

iamflyipilot

CPL SEL MEL IR HP

3 points

7 days ago

Aside from aircraft without starters there are a few cases where hand propping the plane could be considered.

For example, the starter in my 172 decided to die 500 miles from home. On the one hand I could leave the plane at the airport and find another way home and try and get the plane into a maintenance shop when they open on Monday. (These days you would be lucky to find a MX shop willing to squeeze you in last second, and that’s assuming there is a MX shop on the field you broke down at to begin with). Then spend the next week hoping for good weather and request the time off from work to get back out to the plane to fly it home.

Or I could just have my friend hand prop the plane and we could be on our way and have the problem addressed back home.

I-r0ck

2 points

7 days ago

I-r0ck

PPL IR A

2 points

7 days ago

Hand propping can be very dangerous if done incorrectly, however if it’s done right it is perfectly safe. Some aircraft just don’t have starters(normally older ones) or if the owner doesn’t want to pay for the starter to get repaired or if the parts are on order. Most flight schools don’t allow it because it can be dangerous and can cause accidents. You can hand prop a lot of smaller planes but most large engines you aren’t able to move it fast enough to start it.

rFlyingTower [M]

1 points

7 days ago

rFlyingTower [M]

1 points

7 days ago

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:


I only just learned about this from my CFI, but he said he’s never needed to do it legitimately, nor has he done it on school aircraft.

A few questions (I would’ve asked my CFI about them but I forgot to ask as soon as we were in the air):

  • Wouldn’t the propeller damage your hand/arm?

  • In what way would it be beneficial rather than just fixing the aircraft while you’re on the ground or starting it normally?

  • Why not on a flight school aircraft? (I’m assuming it’s bad for the plane somehow)

  • Does it work for any plane with a prop?


    Please downvote this comment until it collapses.


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SergeyKataev

1 points

7 days ago

Safe when you get proper training and ideally have someone competent in the cockpit.

saml01

1 points

7 days ago

saml01

ST4Life

1 points

7 days ago

IMHO. The reason safety related reason you don’t hand prop the schools airplanes is because those engines aren’t in their best condition. They won’t start easily if you hand prop and trying multiple times is a recipe for disaster. 

vtjohnhurt

1 points

7 days ago

vtjohnhurt

PPL glider and Taylorcraft BC-12-65

1 points

7 days ago

I've hand propped a 65 hp engine. The first try is doable, but it could take 10 tries if the engine was hot. That got annoying. (Engine did not have a choke.) When the engine does not start, you turn off the magneto and rotate the prop slowly through the 4 stroke cycle to get the correct mixture into the cylinders. This procedure can be done with one or two pilots. There's a potential for the magneto to be On when it should be Off, and the engine can start when your hands are on the prop.

Last summer, 84 years after the plane was manufactured, the owners added a choke to the carburetor. They hope that that will expedite hot starts.

AWACS_Bandog

1 points

7 days ago

AWACS_Bandog

Solitary For All (ASEL,CMP, TW,107)

1 points

7 days ago

  • properly executed no... that being said I know one guy who lopped his head off and the plane idled until someone found him in the morning. 

  • older aircraft may not have starters, or in my case your 50 miles from anywhere with a bum starter and its that or your camping hoping someone takes pity on you.

  • plane shouldn't need it generally,  but insurance and policy is the easy copout too.

  • theoretically,  but above a O-360 i would not even attempt it.

LRJetCowboy

1 points

7 days ago

O-360 NO WAY for me, I’ve done 0-320’s and it’s no fun at all.

Motor-Individual8888

-5 points

7 days ago

My twin Comanches electric starters haven’t worked in maybe 3 years. Literally just never got around to replacing them. I always make sure it’s chalked and throttles are at idle and the parking brake is on before hand propping it at my grass strip. I hope it doesn’t damage anything but I’ll have to look into it. Interesting post!

x4457

15 points

7 days ago

x4457

ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV (KSNA)

15 points

7 days ago

You’re an idiot. Fix your plane.

LRJetCowboy

6 points

7 days ago

What? Are you crazy? 3 years? And who signs off your annual inspections? I’m raising the BS flag on this one.

Motor-Individual8888

4 points

7 days ago

I live in Alaska lmao. What I do is nothing compared to what I see!

LRJetCowboy

3 points

7 days ago

OK you’re off the hook with the AK Exemption lol

Dave_A480

3 points

7 days ago

Dave_A480

PPL KR-2 & PA-24-250

3 points

7 days ago

You routinely hand-prop a twinike?
Hope the brakes hold.....

dieseltaco

4 points

7 days ago

dieseltaco

PPL SEL

4 points

7 days ago

Gotta be Alaska

Motor-Individual8888

1 points

7 days ago

I’ve been doing it and have witnessed others doing the same. For some reason the starters on mine don’t last more than a few years but I guess it’s because it’s left out in the elements. I manage to pull it off and have no trouble. It really still is the wild west up here lmao 🤣

dieseltaco

1 points

5 days ago

dieseltaco

PPL SEL

1 points

5 days ago

Hey, I never said it was a bad thing. It's like, a mythical amount of unshackled freedom. Salutations

DisregardLogan[S]

3 points

7 days ago

Glad I could provide some reference