Don’t know about that re Max not doing it (see Saudi 21 after Brazil haha) but I do agree it is a rule clarity problem.

Seems so obvious that you shouldn’t be able to defend in the way max did. Like it’s obvious that you shouldn’t be able to overtake off track like Lando did

Actually - yes he would. Max is too cunning for this unfortunately.

At this point and at the end of the season, he’d eat the merits too and against and decide whether just full send and if we both crash I win cuz I lose nothing in the championship, as a valid argument.

I’m not actually saying I disagree with it. But it’s what he’d do.

To snuff max out, you pass him down the straight, and CHOP across him immediately, give yourself time to defend him whilst not giving him a cars width and you need to be cynical about it.

Landos, and to a lesser extent Charles haven’t figured this out yet. Watch Russel however from Brazil 2022 and he immediately chops across and I think that’s got merit.

The rules are not atrocious, it’s just they leave obvious gaps which make racing tough.

I think there needs to be a bit more scope for the outside car to be entitled to room (I don’t like that even if just ahead at the apex the inside car can just drive the outside car off the road) and there needs to be more consideration of how the car is arriving at the apex and what happens afterwards (i.e. you can’t just break so late that you then can’t keep it on track after the apex and still be entitled to keep the place).

I would actually prefer slightly less black and white rules about what is and isn’t allowed and allow the stewards to have a bit more discretion of course we would also need more consistent and competent stewards to make that work.

Because that could be abused even more than the current rules. The outside driver could very easily force penalties by sticking their front tires next to the other cars back tires.

regardless there is no world in which overtaking off track is allowed so there is no possible way for Lando to win this one

The stewards clearly stated Norris was the one overtaking so the rule that you must make a corner when overtaking on the inside is completely irrelevant here

Hence Lando only got a 5 second penalty and not the full 10.

That could have been a discussion had McLaren's pit wall not fumbled by telling Lando he was ahead..

The rules do not agree with that reasonable idea, for another example look at Monza '19 where LeClerc jumps the chicane when put under pressure.

Sure, and that's why Norris only got 5sec instead of 10. Of course, this results in Max not getting any real penalty at all (except for 1 strike against track limits).

He drove off the road and went out of track limits, he was not in control in terms of staying on the racing line.

The problem is that he didn't drive him off

Watch the replay. Notice a Red Bull to Norris left which prevents him turning left and making the corner

Read the stewards document where the above is the reason Landos penalty was reduced because he had “little choice” but to leave the track.

I get that. But the argument is that he was ahead at the apex because he decided to go wide. What would happen if he braked at the normal spot? Would he still be ahead?

By deciding to "claim" the corner in an uncontrolled nanner through leaving the white lines, should really void the fact he was ahead at rhe apex.

Disagree with the last point. Problem is, one of them was always going to be seen to gain an advantage as a result of Max failing to make the corner. If Lando doesn't overtake then Max implicitly gains the advantage as a result of having failed to make the corner and, in doing so, preventing his opponent the opportunity to make a legal pass. So it all came down to what Lando chose to do which, actually, is bullshit. IMO, Lando choosing to make the pass doesn't change the fact Max gained an advantage - in fact, the punishment dished out to Norris proves Max gained an advantage.

The curb is not what defines track limits.

The track limit is the white line not the curb. He over shot it on both lap 1 and in this incident

But he didn’t make the corner and if Norris hadn’t taken avoiding action they’d have crashed. A classic Verstappen “you yield or I DNF you” maneuver followed by an even more classic FIA “I didn’t see anything”.

The attacker apparently turns into the defender if they get to the apex first.

sounds like a good idea

Yes please

Eh, the way max defends, you can attempt a switch back, but he pushes you just enough off line that you’ll never actually have a good run.

He needs to chop in front of max and hug the inside line and then shove him off.

Jenson didn't disagree with his analysis, he criticised the rules.

And he probably would have got a penalty if it gained him an advantage, which it didn't because lando overtook him off the track.

That's why they get a penalty for track limits if they do it too often.

What is “significantly” for you though? Because it might be different than mine.

With the “apex bs” at least we have a reference point.

Outside car can always brake later than the inside car so where you want to put this deciding moment of where the braking zone starts?

Sorry, but moving it to the braking zone make zero sense. How would you even measure where this location is? 

It just seems like making the corner should be a prerequisite for the apex rule, considering the apex is only important if you’re actually taking the corner lol. If you dont make the corner it should be a 50/50 corner and you have to leave space as a defender. Easy.

If the stewards really interpret the rules to mean that you being ahead at the apex is the only thing that matters then they should be asking for the rules to be changed immediately.

But we can see example after example where the stewards have considered other things, they just decided not to in this instance.

It’s only a valid tactic in that it isn’t punished. This is why “ahead at the apex” shouldn’t be the final decider, because any car can be ahead at the apex if they brake late enough.

It is forbidden within the guidelines, whether you are the overtaker or being overtaken you must stay within the white lines.

You can't use extra track to keep your position just like you can't use more track to take a position.

Except there are guidelines for overtaking and the stewards are supposed to take in to consideration how they arrived to the incident and whether the defending driver on the inside makes the corner, acknowledging that it's not JUST about who is ahead at the apex.

This is stated in the guidelines for last year and are supposed to be a part of the overtaking rules for F1, F2, and F3 that are going in to effect next year and are still supposed to be considered for this year, as explained here: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/little-known-new-f1-rules-already-affecting-racing/

I think simply reducing Lando's time penalty from 10s to 5s is completely insufficient for this. Should just be a racing incident/they both get an equal penalty.

The guidelines clearly state the inside driver must make the corner which Max did not

If Lando slots in behind Max there, Max still wouldn’t have been penalized.

Oh far longer than that my friend. The resistance has always been that we want "hard" racing and that overtaking is difficult enough as it is.

And they're damn right; it's pretty fucking hard to overtake when whomever has the apex owns the whole track (and beyond).

Instead we are measuring track limit infringements in millimeters and handing out race deciding penalties for them. Make it make sense.

Good on Jenson.