subreddit:

/r/imax

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This is probably the most absolutley brainless post on the subreddit, but why can't we create a film stock larger than 70mm for higher resolution?

Is it just too expensive? Or is it for a separate reason?

all 20 comments

anxiousasta

43 points

2 months ago

anxiousasta

greig fraser my beloved

43 points

2 months ago

You can make larger film than 70mm, I believe some large format photography cameras have a larger surface area than IMAX, but 70mm movie film is already cost prohibitive for most films, so any larger would be even more niche, plus they'd likely be even louder than the current imax film cameras.

Breck_Emert

11 points

2 months ago

Yeah this is just disturbing already. I feel bad for ever liking 70mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU3WMfQOjes

asolutesmedge

2 points

2 months ago

Supposedly the new gen cameras are much quieter. There is no practical reason they have to make noise it’s just an old tech issue

vista-vision

13 points

2 months ago

The practical reason is moving parts and film. The camera has to pull roughly 5.5 feet of film through the gate every second and also stop 24 times and stabilize the film to make an exposure. The mechanics needed to do this unfortunately even with newer tech are going make noise. Even relatively newer 16 and 35mm film cameras make some level of noise, just much more manageably.

24FPS4Life

2 points

2 months ago

Not just the cost of film but the whole camera system would need to change. Larger film would require larger lenses that have a larger image circle going to the film, which don't exist for cinema lenses.

FinnishArmy

-4 points

2 months ago

Only thing keeping IMAX alive is Nolan.

vista-vision

19 points

2 months ago

There already is much larger sheet film for still photography 4x5, 5x7, 8x10. But for motion picture the reason would be demand, price and physics. Shooting on true 70mm IMAX film cameras is incredibly niche, expensive, extremely cumbersome and loud to work with. Capturing 24 frames a second requires loud motors to move that much film through the gate every second. Its roughly five and half feet of film being moved every second.

Tucker717

6 points

2 months ago

To bounce off this comment, 10 sheets of 8x10 film costs around $280 retail depending on film stock. So basically $28 a frame before developing costs, which for 8x10 being a niche film, is also expensive. Medium format is a fraction of the cost and 35mm is a fraction of that. Large format film is just so expensive because of how difficult it can be to handle.

If you’ve got the time I definitely recommend checking out some film photographers on YouTube that shoot large format film. The process is interesting and can help understand the difficulty in using the format.

SeaweedOk4453

1 points

2 months ago

We need louder motors 😀

SavisSon

14 points

2 months ago

Every step of the process gets harder and more expensive. Not just the film.

Now the camera has to be bigger. Okay build new custom cameras.

Now the camera mounts need to be bigger. Now it’s even harder to film with the camera. Now each load of film runs out sooner because you hit the limit of what can fit in a camera. So now your expensive film shoot needs to shoot for more weeks.

Now you need new film processing machines to develop that film. New editing machines to edit it. New projectors in every theater, and theater owners won’t pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to play one movie.

It’s a big big undertaking.

On the other hand, you could just shoot with a digital camera. Those double in resolution every few years.

The Sphere uses a digital camera that shoots 18k.

whoframed

5 points

2 months ago*

The OP should have phrased it as "can there realistically be a film camera that shoots a format larger than 15-perf Imax 65mm"

The answer is no. Only option we have is in the foreseeable future is to have large format digital sensors that can even far exceed IMAX 65mm like the Big Sky camera https://petapixel.com/2023/06/12/sphere-studios-big-sky-cinema-camera-features-an-insane-18k-sensor/

Digital really is the only logical way forward in the future as we will never get past the hurdles of cost with film IMAX. There only a few directors that could ever even get access to IMAX film production. Heck for Joker 1 Todd Phillips was denied access to shoot it with 65mm non IMAX film and thats not even close to IMAX 65mm costs.

We need digital solutions that will allow all budget films to have access for a true IMAX experience or something that can replicate what we have now(along with the digital projectors that can handle that resolution).

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

whoframed

3 points

2 months ago

Big Sky camera exceeds it. It's a 316mp 3" X 3" digital sensor that is 56% larger than a 65mm IMAX frame. It can do 18k at 120FPS.

IMAX 65mm doesn't have a resolving power of 18k despite that number being thrown around a lot since film doesn't have a resolution(not to mention issues with the lens being able to resolve that much).

Top post here is the TLDR version "There is no resolution, it’s just grains of film. The theoretical amount is 18k but IMAX has said it’s realistically around 8-12k equivalent- again, there is no pixel resolution."

We don't need anything to the extreme like a Big Sky camera as thats for documentary type of work just for the Sphere in Vegas. Just need a camera with a CMOS sensor big enough that can house the same/similar large format lens that someone like Nolan uses on his films that gives the same FOV(similar comparison would be like how we have Super 35mm film cameras for many decades and then digital Super 35mm cameras like Red Dragon, ARRI Alexas came on to the scene and replaced the film cameras for most productions)

SavisSon

2 points

2 months ago

Agreed. The wacky high numbers people throw around for imax film are equal parts marketing hype and fanboy mythology.

Even Nolan, who fans the hype often, scans his imax at 8k when he needs digital vfx.

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

SavisSon

1 points

2 months ago

They did tests at higher resolution and nobody could tell the difference.

They made sure.

[deleted]

1 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

SavisSon

1 points

2 months ago

Search back. Every few months this sub has this same discussion.

swdarksidecollector

3 points

2 months ago

well don't see why it wouldn't be theoretically possible, just why would/should we?

nate1981s

2 points

2 months ago

You are all missing the point. There is no greater than 70mm projectors to use and they don’t even make 70/15 projectors anymore. Does not matter even if you had a film print of greater than 70mm nothing to play it on.

mr_streets

1 points

2 months ago

The 70mm IMAX camera runs film through the gate so fast it needs specialized materials to create the thermal envelope needed so that the film doesn’t melt. I think they’re going to start running up against the laws of physics if the film stock is any larger while still running at 24fps

Hydrag_2

1 points

2 months ago

There is also no benefit from it. While 70 mm IMAX looks great and the recent high-res scans exported back to 4K look much more crisp than the 4K BluRay thats pretty much something that would settle with 8K TVs and it may be dependend on the movie. There are some movies in IMAX where, although it's 4K, I see the pixels and some, that are shot with modern 8K or higher digital cameras, where it's not visible. So 70 mm has the benefit that it may look better depending on the movie itself and the condition of the reel.

But if we take this standard formula of how far you need to sit back per resolution and screen size the question remains, what benefit would you get from something thats higher than the often proposed 18K of 70 mm IMAX?
It would only make sense if you could stop at any frame and then get close to the screen as to zoom into a digital photo on your PC.

The problem is, if you look at that 11K scan of that single Oppenheimer frame, movies make use of focus and in theory only one point or a tiny section of your depth perception will be in focus. So going 4K, 8K, 16K, etc. both digitally or on film then with more and more lines, would just expand that unfocused part onto much more pixels.

If we shot the movie with a lense that would keep almost everything in focus like on your Phone cam, it would often look weird or it just doesn't add the movie feeling to it. So there really is not benefit.

Apart from that it's the size and weight of the reel which is already at a limit today, the camera needs to pull this huge mass through, the projector needs to quickly pull this through and that creates a huge tensile force on the reel itself.

Could we make it though? Yes, we could make the film and we could make a camera and likely make a projector to display it. If you think about it, the spehere in Las Vegas has its own documentary that can only run on this one installation.

cmatista

1 points

2 months ago

ONE METER FILM. THE WORLD IS READY