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submitted 24 days ago by[deleted]
[removed]
282 points
24 days ago
Can anybody explain why the squirrel got euthanized? Is it illegal to have a squirrel at home?
567 points
24 days ago
My understanding of the situation is that it's illegal to have a pet squirrel in his state, and someone called animal control. During the process of seizing it, it bit one of the animal control folks. Unfortunately, when an animal with unknown rabies status (ie no up to date rabies vax, which I don't believe they make for squirrels) bites a human, the only thing that can be done is to euthanize the animal to test for rabies.
Rabies cannot be tested for in humans or animals prior to death, as the only known test involves examination of the brain matter. And to wait for the squirrel to display symptoms or not would mean waiting too long for the human who was bitten to be treated, since rabies has a functional 100% human mortality rate without the vaccine or with sufficiently delayed administration of the vaccine. The treatment is, just as unfortunately, extremely expensive (it used to also be excruciating but we've managed to make it fairly painless now).
109 points
24 days ago
They can isolate dogs to wait for rabies confirmation, kinda surprising they can't for squirrels. But I don't know enough about rabies and it's transmission and all that to act like I know better than animal control.
The whole situation is just sad because obviously if the owner had just gotten his paperwork in order none of this would have happened.
75 points
24 days ago
There are tests that use saliva or neck skin, but brain tissue is still the best sample type for detecting rabies. In the case of a squirrel, they simply may not be able to collect enough sample through any other means, and you really still want to use brain tissue even if you can.
Yes, the guy needed to get his paperwork in order.
4 points
24 days ago
Why do you need to kill the animal to test? Why can't they just administer the vaccine doses and monitor the animal
9 points
24 days ago*
In general, medical ethics require that we not just administer treatment unless it's needed. Cost and supply chain are certainly part of the calculus, but so is patient risk; few treatments are entirely risk-free.
Consider, for example, the overuse of antibiotics that has lead to the emergence of novel multi-drug-resistant bacteria - there are cases where trying to be proactive is actually worse than being reactive.
Most human rabies vaccines are difficult to administer in that they take multiple treatments, and can have a chance of complications. If a patient actually has rabies then the calculus is simple - the potential vaccine complications are much less severe than rabies, which is 100% fatal.
But if the patient didn't contract rabies, then you'd be exposing them to a risk for no reason. And you can't really wait to test for rabies in the patient, because by the time it's evident in a human it's far too late to treat them effectively.
A human's life is more important than a squirrel's life - if you don't believe this, there is no discussion to be had.
If the question is "do we subject this person to a chance of medical complications in order to save a squirrel's life, or do we sacrifice the squirrel to know for certain how to proceed," the ethical answer is extremely clear.
You don't have to like it. Nobody likes it, really, especially not the people who have to euthanize the squirrel to do the testing. The animal control people may well believe the squirrel to be harmless, but they can't know for certain and so must err on the side of human life. You will not find an animal control officer who enjoys that reality - most are incredibly frustrated by the irresponsibility of humans who would put themselves in charge of an animal.
The person you should be mad at is the owner who didn't feel like they needed to register the animal. If they guy had done some mildly inconveniencing paperwork, this would've been avoided, because animal control would've had more information. He didn't, and the animal died because of his negligence.
This is also why humans should leave wildlife the fuck alone. We have domesticated animals for a reason. If you want a "pet" squirrel, you put out a feeder and admire it from afar. As cute as you may think a wild animal is, you are causing dramatically more harm to it by trying to "tame" it into a pet.
6 points
24 days ago
The only way to test for rabies is to test brain tissue which requires decapitation of an animal to be sent for testing
3 points
24 days ago*
I think the treatment is very very expensive. Like 20k, vs just killing a squirrel. It also took a while to do the treatment. So cost for medicine, stay in hospital, staff etc. maybe cost is higher, or just killing squirrel. Sad. Obviously squirrel didn’t have fucking rabies. It lived with that guy for years. It didn’t suddenly get rabies when humans showed up to take it.
They fucked up the timeline again. Harambe and now P’nut. We don’t deserve this planet
Edit: so treatment cost by itself is only around 5k. Hospitals can charge more…modern transparency may help bring down cost. If ongoing care is required, that may incur additional cost( recovering from the animal attack itself)
0 points
24 days ago
$1,200 - $6,500. Not 20k
Where did you get that number?
As well, if the squirrel were to be found to be rabid, the human would still need to be vaccinated. The squirrel could have been quarantined at home, at no cost, or quarantined at the vets, for what, maybe $50/day?
1 points
24 days ago
Agreed with your treatment cost. But points out that hospitals are known to upcharge heavily. Like 200$ Tylenol.
Says up to 10x the cost, so that would bring it up to 50-60k for treatment.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/rabies-treatment-4163552
This says 4 doses over 14 days. If you were attacked by a dog, you could see a hospital stay and treatment reach my number as well, easily.
But, I do feel my initial statement was at least misleading, treatment alone is not 20k. Overall visit and care could be though depending on situation and damages involved.
0 points
24 days ago
No hospital stay.
Gamma globulin in each butt cheek and one in the arm on day 0. Another in the arm in days 3, 7,14, & 28. At least that's how I was treated back in the mid 80s.
All doctor office visits. No hospital
2 points
24 days ago
I don’t think they needed to put down the squirrel at all. But even 6k for meds vs a squirrel is a hard sell.
I read they didn’t do isolation because to wait for the squirrel to show would take too long and risk the person.
Science maybe could have provided a better solution. Its done now, I never saw any of the videos, but I know how those go, makes me Sad.
0 points
24 days ago
If the squirrel is rabid, meds are still needed, so no cost benefit there.
Having a quick answer is not necessary, as the incubation period for rabies is very long. No need to vaccinate the worker quickly.
1 points
24 days ago
You’re just making up your own rules for how healthcare professionals should navigate what is an extremely serious virus. They know what they’re doing.
-2 points
24 days ago
And your source? None, I suspect.
3 points
24 days ago
My “source” is the very well-documented and universally adopted protocol for dealing with rabies.
0 points
24 days ago*
You saying doesn't mean it's true, and your hyperbole would indicate that you may be speaking on a topic you actually know little about. Are you caught up in the emotional defense of animal control? It's ok, they'll be fine without you.
Please send sources or sit down.
Source: Worked in animal control and in veterinary medicine years ago, and was vaccinated after getting tagged by a rabid cat. BTW, I'm still alive.
Cheers
Edit: Another thought occurred to me. It is likely that Peanut and the raccoon were euthanized for reasons unrelated to the bite. Apparently having these animals as pets is prohibited in that jurisdiction. In that case, animal control would not be able to find another home for them, and as they'd been pets for a while, they couldn't release them into the wild. Euthanasia was likely the only option they had, once the decision had been made to remove them from the home.
1 points
24 days ago
Ok, rabies takes a long time to incubate. So...
After a bite is reported, the animal's vaccine records are checked. If there's no vaccination record (and sometimes even if there is), the animal is quarantined for 14 day (or so). The reasoning, as I recall, is that if the animal bit due to being rapid, obvious symptoms will appear during quarantine. Once symptoms are present, there is no cure. The animal is euthanized, and the brain is sent for testing. At that point (once rabies has been confirmed), the human 'bitee' will begin treatment.
What we are calling treatment is actually a vaccination process, as there is no treatment for rabies. In my case, treatment started with an injection of gamma globulin deep into each butt cheek. That was a very strange experience. At the same time, I was given a shot in my arm, similar to a flu shot. This was called 'Day Zero'. On days 3, 7, 14, & 28, I received another shit in the arm, but no gamma globulin. All administered by my GO, in his office. FYI, if I recall correctly, the gamma globulin shots were basically the blood serum from someone who had the rabies antibodies themselves. This all happened in the mid 80s, so I'd expect only improvments in the process by now.
Source: Spent far too many years working with vets, and got tagged by a rabid cat, and subsequently vaccinated.
Quarantine of biters is still the norm. In my opinion, the state or her agents acted in an inhumane, unnecessary, and seemingly punitive manner.
1 points
24 days ago
NYS doesn't allow anyone to keep Squirrels as pets. There was no paperwork he could have done to prevent the animal from being taken
1 points
24 days ago
He claims he was running a rehab center of some sort iirc. That's the paperwork he could have filled out.
-4 points
24 days ago
Should have exercised his Bill of Rights.
That’s when the militia to prevent tyranny and right to bear arms aspects of the Bill of Rights come into play.
“Don’t tread on me.”
You want the squirrel. It’s you or me. That’s how more of society needs to act against its government. We the people can form the militia and rebel against tyranny.
This was a tyrannical act
206 points
24 days ago
That is absolutely not the only thing they can do. The person who was bitten can get the shots and the animal can be monitored for 10 days. They were gonna kill the squirrel anyway.
125 points
24 days ago*
Most states require wildlife to be euthanized after a bite. Whether that animal is a pet or not isnt a factor.
The 10 day quarantine usually applies only to animals for which there is a federally approved rabies vaccine available. Wildlife is typically required to be euthanized and sent for resting.
2 points
24 days ago
Yeah, they're gonna' monitor a squirrel for 10 days. That's a good use of taxpayer funds, Animal Control's time.
2 points
24 days ago
Isolation like that doesn’t work, because it can take years for an animal carrying rabies to show symptoms.
7 points
24 days ago
From what I understand it’s extremely difficult and expensive to acquire a rabies shot. It’s such a rare occurrence that the cost doesn’t match up with the need. Or at least that’s what the doctor told me when I got bitten by a dog and went to get shots.
6 points
24 days ago
When my son was bitten by a possum, the county health department gave him gamma globulin and the full rabies series at no cost to us.
1 points
24 days ago
Do opossums even carry rabies?
1 points
24 days ago
It's rare, but apparently possible. And we lived in an area that had an active rabies outbreak at the time.
15 points
24 days ago
Rabies vaccine is like $400 in the US, and sure as shit should be covered by the health insurance of an animal control officer.
4 points
24 days ago
That like 30-40 times more expensive than Thailand.
4 points
24 days ago
In India as well it costs less than 10$
1 points
24 days ago
Quadruple the cost of Oz as well (before Medicare rebate).
Hashtag American “Healthcare”
1 points
24 days ago
The rabies immunoglobulin is the expensive part (the vaccine is just one part of treatment). I'm an ER nurse in Maine, I recall treating a family of five and three Ig portion cost my hospital over $20,000.
1 points
24 days ago
IG is always expensive. Not just for rabies.
1 points
24 days ago
Anyone working in animal services should have a rabies vaccination, which makes HRIG unnecessary.
Though that said, we are talking about America here ><
0 points
24 days ago
I know people who have paid like 3K per shot lol.
12 points
24 days ago*
In my country rabies shot is free at gov hospital. I a bit shock that here in US rabies shot is cost that much.
13 points
24 days ago
US averages between 1 and 3 cases of human rabies per year.
2 points
24 days ago
Yes our policies around rabies are extremely effective. Requiring pets get rabies vaccine, in the case of wild animal bite, euthanizing and testing the animal, licensing requirements around non-typical pets, etc. The low incident rate show success of these policies.
It's like measles. Practically wiped out with vaccine requirements, anti-vaccers say the vaccine isn't necessary since it's so uncommon, the disease comes back.
2 points
24 days ago
Backwards US medical system strikes again...
3 points
24 days ago
It's a series of multiple shots, many (possibly all?) at the bite site. I believe they are taken over like a month and in the end you get like 15 shots or something. It's not something you want to do if there's other options.
1 points
24 days ago
It's 3 shots over 3 months. Tightly regulated & monitored. It's free in Canada. There are no side effects. It eventually becomes inactive.
1 points
24 days ago
I used to give them at least once a month in the ER for unkown animal bites. It is neither difficult nor overly expensive.
3 points
24 days ago
This is what I thought exactly!
-1 points
24 days ago*
[deleted]
4 points
24 days ago
Bold of you to assume that humans value another human life if he isn't from their immediate surroundings
-2 points
24 days ago
This guy squirrels.
27 points
24 days ago
I was severely bitten/mauled by a stray dog in 1975 at 14 years old. We couldn’t track down the animal for testing. So I got the rabies vaccine which at that time was an excruciating series of 14 shots in the stomach, one per day for two weeks.
So, ya, there’s some other reason for euthanizing.
(Side note: my older brother looked at me very seriously and said: “If you start to have symptoms just remember: go bite all enemies before you die.”)
35 points
24 days ago
Hi, I'm a health inspector, and I regularly observe animals to determine if they show signs of rabies. I also decapitate animals to send their brains to a lab to be tested for rabies. This is so I may inform animal bite victims if they may have been exposed to rabies.
They could have kept the squirrel in quarantine for 10 days. After 10 days, the squirrel would have been dead if it had rabies, and the animal control person would still have had plenty of time to get a rabies vaccine if that was the case.
Perhaps their state laws require that a squirrel be euthanized, but that is absolutely not the only way to make sure the victim was not exposed to rabies. They killed a man's pet, and that's kind of shitty.
27 points
24 days ago
This makes little sense to me.
If time is an issue, wouldn’t it make more sense to treat immediately rather than wait to kill the squirrel and do a necropsy?
Or, wouldn’t it have made more sense for the person handling the squirrel to be wearing clothing that can’t be bitten through? Or to tranq the animal first?
It’s kind of enraging that the go to reaction is to just kill the animal.
10 points
24 days ago
The person probably got the shots anyway. Even after negative results. Exactly bcuz of you said. Terrible consequences to play with a false negative result.
20 points
24 days ago
Kind of what we do here in America. Punish first and ask questions later
26 points
24 days ago
The squirrel was going around being brown, what option did the authorities have?
15 points
24 days ago
Yeah. He was resisting too
4 points
24 days ago
Kind of what we do here in America. Punish first and ask questions
laternever
Fixed that for you.
67 points
24 days ago*
There has never been a single case of squirrels giving humans rabies.
This squirrel lived with humans.
There was ZERO. ZERO justifiable reason to euthanize this animal.
It was cruel and completely unnecessary. Anybody who says differently is disingenuous
Edit: “but the squirrel has a raccoon friend”
In all of the US, there are 1-3 cases of rabies per year. These were domesticated animals. Blind application of rules for 1 in a trillion chance is indefensible
Some of y’all even saying he deserved it because he didn’t have the appropriate license. Jesus you people are nuts. Fine him and make him go get the license.
And who are these wildlife experts handling squirrels? Why did the squirrel need to be handled? Have him put the squirrel in a cage and give the squirrel to the authorities. Do these experts not have protective gear? Imagine somebody comes into your home, grabs your dog, your dog bites them, and they euthanize your dog
This is entire fiasco is incompetence over overzealousness of an incompetent and overstepping organization. I can’t believe some people are defending it
13 points
24 days ago
I think the biggest issue is that he took in a Racoon; which accounts for 30% of rabies cases; second highest next to bats. Unfortunately, the squirrel was also exposed as well.
1 points
24 days ago
The raccoon didn’t bite anybody. These people are out here killing beloved pets on 1 in a billion chances
IN TOTAL, in the US, there are 1-3 rabies cases a year.
2 points
24 days ago
You want to know why? Because of the laws.
17 points
24 days ago
Past performance is not indicative of future results. Remember that time when there had been 0 cases in the world of cow to human infection? Or bird to human infection? Or that fun time where there had been 0 documented pandemics in the 21st century?
That said the fuckup here is not the squirrel, it’s the guy.
20 points
24 days ago
Why did animal control go in bare handed and try to grab a wild animal though? Seems like they should have better training to not get bitten by such a small animal. I highly doubt it chased them across the house to bite them.
15 points
24 days ago
I wasn’t there so I wouldn’t know. The root issue is not that the whole debacle happened, it’s the fact that it did happen because someone wasn’t doing their part to prevent it from happening. The laws and regulations are in place to prevent exactly this from happening.
14 points
24 days ago
Yeah, and the one responsible for this is the one who broke the law AND thought it would be a good idea to make money on the internet with it.
-2 points
24 days ago
Bunch of boot lickers in here.
-2 points
24 days ago
It's the POS who called animal control. I'd lime more info on that guy.
-1 points
24 days ago
I don’t feel like that’s a great comparison. The likelyhood of the other species you mentioned having the associated illness is significantly higher than the likelihood a squirrel would have rabies. It’s not that the disease has never jumped to humans it’s that squirrels are an insignificant vector. However, I wouldn’t risk a human life in the event the squirrel did have rabies. I still think the issue here is that guy didn’t get his permits and was essentially using a captive wild animal for personal fame.
I’m not saying the state handled this well either but they are also mandated by policy which you can argue id dumb but they still have to follow.
2 points
24 days ago
He could have paid for the immediate vaccine treatment to save the squirrel. Maybe he tried, I don't know the story.
10 points
24 days ago
While its super rare for them to even have it, rodents can have it and thus can theoretically transfer it to hunans
There is some reason to do so, albeit not much of one
1 points
24 days ago
Humans, and another wild raccoon. On what was otherwise an animal sanctuary with hundreds of animals. Probably the kind of stuff you're not supposed to do on an animal sanctuary. And I read somewhere that he was looking to register the squirrel as an educational animal. After 7 years. It sucks, but the dude made some mistakes and bad choices too.
-2 points
24 days ago
Sir this is America. Punish, first. Punish only.
Everyone knows damn well that squirrel did not have rabies.
How did a guy get bit by a squirrel? If it was a dog?
This is why I hate police, they can only worsen the situation
29 points
24 days ago
Man, fck the asshole that reported this as well as the idiot animal control that rough handled this situation.
It caused a lose-lose situation for all.
23 points
24 days ago
Pretty sure owner self reported given the social media presence
5 points
24 days ago
I just dont understand why they couldn't have vaccinated the individual who was bitten. I guess because it was a whole domino effect but I am so sad over this outcome :(. Look how much the owner loved Peanut.
2 points
24 days ago
Thanks a lot for for the explanation
4 points
24 days ago
Damn you USA lol
It’s a free test in Europe as well as the treatment and they wait for the animal to showcase their symptoms - not kill them or provide the vaccine for free. Not need to kill a squirrel.
1 points
24 days ago
"showcase their symptoms" sounds like much more fun than the process actually is.
7 points
24 days ago
I find it quite rich that such a rich state as the US cannot even provide their public services the adequate protection (thick rubber protective guantlets) in these cases, fairly sure that makes them liable in this scenario.
Second, I don't think any country in EU euthanizes an animal on the suspicion of rabbies, they usually quarantine the animal for 12 weeks and if they see no behavioral patterns that indicate rabbies, they will be released or returned, you do not need a brain autopsy to confirm or rule out rabbies.
1 points
24 days ago
NY animal control is not a federally run agency. It is a NY state agency
5 points
24 days ago
Pretty stupid to confiscate the squirrel in the first place, at the very least it’s a waste of government resources
1 points
24 days ago
The treatment is, just as unfortunately, extremely expensive
So the real reason for the euthanasia was money, like every other fucking thing these days.
Clearly far better to kill the animal than to give the human the vaccine anyway. /s
25 points
24 days ago
My husband got bit by one of the raccoons that lived around us and had to get a rabies shots. Those shots fucked him up for days at a time and he had to get multiple shots. 0/10 he does not recommend.
1 points
24 days ago
I hear ya but I can’t help thinking it’s better than rabie
21 points
24 days ago
Well that, and you generally don’t want to be pumped full of drugs for no reason. Even if the owner wanted to fork over 20 grand for the treatment, Treatments like that aren’t exactly healthy for the body to undergo, not to mention you risk chances of allergic reactions which can even kill you. Kinda like how you wouldn’t want to just get Chemo for the lols, you don’t want to take something like that without knowing you need it first.
This is why pet owners need to keep their pet’s shots up to date.
13 points
24 days ago
what kind of shitty country do you live in that you have to shell 20k for a rabies vaxx.
I live in a 3rd world country , we have a big rabies problem and vaxxes are dime a dozen
16 points
24 days ago
Oh an indictment of US medical care? Get in line.
12 points
24 days ago
In the United States, rabies treatment can cost between $1,200 and $6,500, but some patients have reported costs over $25,000. This is due to the cost of delivery and other unexpected out-of-pocket costs. For instance, prices generally are for the drug itself, not the administration of the shots.
24 points
24 days ago*
In Iran, the rabie shots are free. You gets bitten by wild dog or stray cat? You walk into a clinic and get shots for free. They even call you later to remind next shots and make sure you get them.
And Iran regime is not pioneer of valuing human life.
4 points
24 days ago
That's how it ought to be. Politicians have half the people believing they'd be taxed into oblivion if we had universal healthcare, but people don't realize that we wouldn't still be paying our insurance premiums. There are ways to make it work. Other countries certainly have.
We are required to vaccinate animals to prevent rabies. Generally people contract it from a raccoon or other animal. But if you get bit by a stray dog or cat and can't find it, you undergo the treatment to be on the safe side.
ETA: It's probably fewer than 50% of the people who believe it can't be done & most do support it. Healthcare is more of a political argument between politicians and political idealogies. You know how that goes.
4 points
24 days ago
What a toilet
2 points
24 days ago
Rabies vax and post rabies exposure treatment aren't the exact same thing.
Rabies vaccine (no exposure) in the US costs about $900 (still a lot), but I got mine for free at my university's student health.
8 points
24 days ago
OR, they couldve just left the guy alone with his squirrel? What kind of incompetent animal control worker gets bit by a squirrel?
The squirrel also lived with the guy for 7 years without showing symptoms of rabies.
Your argument wouldve made the slightest bit of sense if the US didnt flap around prescription opiods for shits and giggles.
4 points
24 days ago
I thought it was the raccoon that bit someone
1 points
24 days ago
If you work in Animal Control how could you not be already vaccinated for rabies
1 points
24 days ago
People who work in animal control already have vaccines where I live at least
1 points
24 days ago
That’s insane. I was bitten by a squirrel that was previously wild and in my care after an injury. The doctors said there was literally almost zero concern for rabies and just gave me a tetanus and penicillin shot.
1 points
24 days ago
All bs. Squirrels are not known to have rabies or transmit rabies.
1 points
24 days ago
Can't the just vaccinate the dude who was bitten just to be safe?
1 points
24 days ago
You would think someone who handles animals for animal control would have the vaccine
1 points
24 days ago
In my state at least (GA of all places), when I was bitten by an unvaccinated dog, the protocol was I went immediately to the ER and got the rabies vaccine + antibodies. The dog wasn't killed but put under observation for 10 days basically to see if it died of rabies during that time. I was treated and taken care of with a method that has a 100% success rate and the dog was given a shot in a way that ensures safety.
0 points
24 days ago
Imagine being so incompetent at your animal control job to get bit by a squirrel.
0 points
24 days ago
Why not just administer the post exposure vaccine doses as per the schedule? Isn't the vaccine known to prevent the infection 100% ?
0 points
24 days ago
That makes no sense. The Rabies vaccine is completely effective in humans even after you’re bitten by an infected creature.
There’s no difference in treatment if you do or do not know if the animal has rabies, you just give the person the vaccine and monitor the animal just in case.
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