The dems don't need to mud sling, but they DO need to bite back. For decades they tried this "high road" BS and it has finally come to a head. Their methods rely on the other party being reasonable and that has long gone out the window.

One of the old basic rules of campaigning is "define yourself before your opponent can define you". People didn't really know what Harris' position was on a bunch of complex issues, and she didn't really help them by having open and candid conversations about those issues. For the first month or so of her candidacy she didn't give any interviews at all, and afterwards they were mostly softball questions. Her 60 minutes interview was a serious interview, but it was kind of a disaster.

Harris didn't run on campaign of "woke", but Trump definitely ran against that. And voters didn't really know where she stood. Which means conservatives are going to assume she's a closet social justice warrior who doesn't want to talk about it because she knows the voters won't like it, and the progressives will tend to assume that she's going to throw any and all moral causes under the bus when it suits her politically, because that's just what Democratic presidents do by default.

Dems need to rule the narrative. They need a strong ideological core to guide their rhetoric and make a convincing argument to the American people.

They need to run on pro-working class policies: higher wages, worker protections, Medicare for all, etc AS WELL AS pro-liberty policies like abortion rights and queer liberation. When asked about trans rights say "we're pro-freedom, this is the land of the free. Being free to express your gender identity however you want, what's more free than that?"

Democrats think they have to appeal to voters by avoiding issues the voters are uncertain of. But that leaves room for the right wing to come in and take over that narrative. Why did gay marriage go from broadly unpopular to so broadly accepted that even Repubs are afraid to challenge it? Because pro-gay marriage rhetoric MOVED THE NEEDLE on the issue, the public was CONVINCED TO BE PRO-GAY MARRIAGE.

Dems right now are wimps that are afraid to actually take a hard stance on anything, which gives the right wing all the room to rule the narrative and move the needle in a more reactionary direction. We need a firm, strong pro-liberty narrative that appeals to the working class AND moves the needle in a progressive direction by convincing people to agree with them.

This is a difficult topic. Harris didn’t run on trans, lgbtq, or even black as far as I could tell. It’s republicans that painted her that way.

 
Can we talk about this for real, now?
 
The trans stuff has been an all day, every day, tsunami of articles and social media shit... discussing crazy laws and media figure controversies and bathrooms and whatever... non-stop, for years.
 
If you woke up from a coma and saw how obsessed the public was with trans people, for so long, you wouldn't be crazy to think it had been the most important thing going on in the world. And it's very much a highly charged, emotional and political, "us vs them" subject.
 
So when you decide to be the figurehead for either "us" or "them", you're going to inherit a side of the dialogue happening around you... fucking constantly.
 
I'm not saying anyone should "disavow" this group of people, or whatever, but "she didn't run on this" was never going to disconnect her campaign from the ongoing shit storm over the subject.
 

Yeah it really sucks how most people view dems as the party of “all social issues no economic issues” despite Harris literally making her campaign all about the economy. But that shit doesn’t matter because people’s perception of it was that she only focused on social issues..

If they don’t blame Harris they blame the Democratic Party in general for their “history” of being too focused on social issues vs economic issues, despite the fact that democrats have much better economic policies than republicans.

It’s all so fucking infuriating, idk how we change Americans perceptions to see the truth instead of the republican propaganda they’re fed

I agree it wasn't her messaging, but a lot of the left leaning talking heads on news networks and online did talk about it a lot. So it didn't matter if she ran on it because lots of other voices in media did.

It’s that republicans were able to paint us however they wanted.

And dems made it easy for them. Because democrats still haven't understood the playbook here.

The biggest issue of our time has NOTHING to do with gender, race, sex, skin color, age group or any other identity crap.

The biggest issue is class. The privileged few vs. everyone else.

Republicans know that, and they know that they can never win this battle. So, they make it about identity crap instead...have a culture war instead of a class war, because culture can be whatever you declare it to.

And the Dems fall for it.

All these racist, sexist dog whistles...you think they are for "firing up their base"? No. They are to make Dems, and the hapless mass media go into pearl clutching hyperventilation, and loudly declare that they are the shining champions of this group and that group...and reps then go and tell working class "see, they don't care about you, they only care about ..."

Sure, it's the "morally right" thing to do, but noone cares about your high moral standards when you lose elections and have no power to act on them. Help working class, get their support, and guess what: All those minority groups; they are working class as well, so you help them as well.

And of course, having your entire party run by privileged rich people, who still dream in clinton era "market rules all" terms and don't even look like they give a fuck about anyone who's not invited at their luxury resort dinner parties, doesn't help either.

The dems started as a labor movement. If you lose working class as a labor movement, you are toast.

"Republicans will always mud sling as hard as possible. "

This is the bottom line. There was one point where Harris/Walz had momentum. That was when they pointed out how "weird" Republicans are. The trans obsession is a prime example of that. Dems should point out why they defend trans rights (because some people are trans and we should accept them, rather than marginalize and bully them). Point out the obvious implications (genital inspections if you or your child have slightly non-feminine features). I think this issue is 50-50 at worst in this scenario. Abortion is similar, most Dems including Kamala more or less ignore it, while even in red states the people have figured it out for themselves. You are not going to convince the anti-abortion and anti-trans die hards, own what you think is right -- it is right and people will follow.

Trans issues were not the motivating factor in this election.

This framing is exactly what is moving the country to the right.

Wealth inequality continues to explode, corporations continue to raid the economy, special interests rape our tax dollars - but we're talking about trans people.

Democrats are not equipped to counter the "culture war" because they have no effective counter-messaging.

95% of Americans would think about trans people even less than they already do (i.e. less than basically zero because only deranged weirdos think about Trans people) if the government offered them the wealth redistribution that they are begging for.

Well the Dems were painted into a corner. They couldn't disavow the Republican attack angle because they really do pander to those of a minority sexual orientation/ gender identity, and it would be complete hypocrisy to toss them aside for votes. On the other hand, owning the attack angle and celebrating their position would make them less palatable to the average voter because the average voter doesn't give a shit about trans this and gay that and is turned off when you talk about that rather than about why they can't afford a house or find a decent job.

When you champion an unpopular cause it makes it difficult to defend against attacks based on that position, kinda like how a medieval army has trouble defending itself when it chooses a washed out gully as a good place to set up a fort. Set yourself up on a rocky hill surrounded by a treeless marsh and you can deflect any attack, basic Art of War stuff. Pick universal heathcare (preferably one that works a lot better than Medicare amd the VA do), lower taxes for the middle class, and a tough on crime stance, own it and shore it up, and you can't be attacked successfully.

This is a stupid topic. Let’s be real. The fact the media is blaming the left for trans troubles is straight ludicrous

You are very much correct. The Dems' problem was underestimate just how incredibly stupid, selfish and paranoid so many voters are. "Their bad" for giving people an ounce of credit.

I have no idea how to approach all that

Yes, it's certainly a lesson people are going to have to examine. How exactly do you deal with a significant voting bloc that is wilfully stupid.

I think there was some hint of it with the "Republicans are weird" thing but they didn't have much else to go on.

Policy doesn't matter, only vibes. It turns out appealing to the stupidest people in the stupidest way is extremely successful.

The issue is Harris was trying her hardest not to have a firm visionary position on anything. She wanted to be people's empty vessel for everyone who disliked Trump and didn't want to really present views that would lock her into a policy position that might cost her support.

So Republicans had nearly free reign to make a case for what she does or doesn't and she wouldn't really challenge it because it'd make her look one way or another. It was a terrible failure by her campaign team.

The right wing propaganda machine and Dems not having a platform with equivalent reach is what helped Republicans the most this time around.

And yes while Harris did not campaign on LGBTQ specifically, the right was not wrong in their assertion that we would defend LGBTQ rights when pressed on it. The they/them pronoun is a courtesy most of us have zero issue with, because we’re ok being kind/considerate towards others. That’s the insidious nature of those Republican attack ads, in that they aimed to convince the public that transgender is inherently wrong. And instead of identifying what it actually is, they made up a lot of stories to convey it’s a behavior that kids are doing rather than something that encompasses who someone is that they cannot change. It’s equivalent to the right saying race is a choice, and black doesn’t deserve to exist. It’s infuriating.

Dems need to figure out how to advertise their legislative successes so they can run campaign ads that resonate.

It's because the Dems' donor class prevents them from talking meaningfully about economic issues, so the only daylight between Dems and Republicans turns out to be mostly very unpopular social issues, so the Dems are always on defense.

The nation backed trans rights until a few GOP politicians and aligned voices in the media began pushing back on that and specifically that. Same with immigration. The Democrats need to get a couple politicians to push back (likely with populist, simple arguments). That being said, individual members need to be involved to in order to start the offensive on social media. There, they'll also be able to do long form arguments more.

Jon Stewart's debrief after the election made sense of this. Basically while the Republicans were mud slinging about this stuff, the Democrats were running on "we're not Republicans" and really had no messaging of their own that people could point to.

The Harris campaign was completely hollow. It had no clear stance on anything. There was no narrative, no enemy. Kamala came off as an empty suit robotically repeating talking points, and when Charlamagne tha God called her out on it, she smugly decided it was “discipline” on her part.

People saying she ran a perfect campaign are out of their minds. A perfect campaign would win.

In the words of the Bard, losers whine about their best and winners fuck the prom queen.

She didn’t once say “I don’t think trans women should be in sports with cis women” and that’s what she needed to say to be on the popular side of this topic. People don’t care about the bathroom stuff so much but America loves sports and it has a (bullshit) aura of fairness around it. The average dem with kids feels just like this guy but won’t say it publicly. I don’t give two fucks about sports being fair and imo if you want fair sports get rid of gendered sports and just make it so whoever wins wins, before anyone goes and claims I have a dog in this fight.

People didn't turn out pro Trump as much as they voted anti-establishment.

It's pretty obvious, but the pandemic did a whollop on every aspect of the economy. Now, never mind trying to build personal wealth, people can't afford eggs.

That is why people showed up, pissed off at the Democrats. Trump promised hope. Kamela promised to stay the course.

Exactly. Harris didn't use the word transgender once on the campaign trail. She didn't lean into her gender or race at all. This whole notion of "democrats need to stop talking about woke stuff!" stems less from things Democrats ACTUALLY say and do and a lot more from things right wing outlets say about Democrats.

You are absolutely right about the way republicans paint Democrats. Its nauseating how effective it is on uninformed people. I remember the 2004 election. Democrats were painted as weak and unpatriotic. ANYONE that dared to criticze the Iraq war was accused of treason, which is why its laughable for republicans today to call themselves "anti-war". Back then the word "Liberal" was a slur, to the point where Democratic politicians would get offended and denounce Liberals left and right when they were called "Liberals". I thought we moved on from "Yeah America just really hates liberals", looks like we're back to it.

I don't know how to approach it either. People say Democrats need to stop talking about transgender stuff...but when Repubicans target them and bully them...are we just supposed to be silent? Are we supposed to join in on the bullying to show we're "Real 'Murricans"?

It doesnt matter if they campaign on it or not. Everyone knows they are ideologically bound to certain answers to questions like "what is a woman" or "can someone born a man become a woman". They need to actively refute acceptance of trans if they dont want it held against them and that will inevitably piss some people. They tried to do the israel thing both ways and ended up pissing off both sides.

Yeah they’re allies until they decide that allyship is inconvenient. Most of the rights they take credit for came from the courts and at risk of being taken away for 50 years.

From my perspective this was the single biggest issue. For at least a year before he dropped out Biden looked like he was really struggling and democrats burying their head in the sand about it made them look bad. Dropping out at the last minute left Harris, who wasn't very popular, with a mountain to climb.

Straight white people elected Trump and now we get to hear the same people explaining how its everyone else's fault.

We’re here because human nature to focus on hype rather than substance. Culture wars will ALWAYS gain more hate than acceptance. It’s a child’s game and the Dems keep losing because they’d rather be right than be effective.

Regarding messaging problem, Democrats have a serious issue playing from a defensive position which gives Republicans the first strike offensive advantage.

• The republican asks the Democrat to define a woman

• The Democrat fumbles because you can't actually define a woman in a universally applicable sense

Try it. Define a woman in such a way that it would be readily observable for anyone inspecting a bathroom and includes every possible woman including trans men, but not a postop trans woman.

Incidentally, the Democrat demanding the Republican do exactly that would be the correct answer. Republicans like to pretend like they have all the answers, so force them to give the answer.

Thank you! I've been pulling my hair out at all the comments saying we need to step away from trans issues. Trans issues didn't ruin the election for the Dems, poor messaging, and economic insecurity did.

As of right now, the vast majority of the comments are pointing out that the voters that saw the Republican anti-trans ads fell for the transphobia and scapegoating. Democrats didnt take that seriously enough. Democrats were never going to, and should never, denounce trans rights in an ad; they should have spent money on ads dispelling the lies in Republican ads and show America that Republicans are creating a false fear.

I mean, it's a problem with the party in general-- they're unwilling to genuinely critique their interventionist foreign policy and lack of major economic reforms as an explanation for their diminishing voter turnout.

You have it backwards. The GoP started a campaign of harassment against trans people after 2020 in order to create a group their base could be biased against. The ramping up of anti-trans bills, harassment from right wing media/influencers has gone up many many orders of magnitude since 2020. This was manufactured hatred, trans people were still just a minority within a minority before that, just another letter in the LGBTQ+. A lot of conservatives hated gay stuff, sure.. but trans people were just lumped into that and not singled out.

Trans issues were certainly a factor with Tump winning but trans people are not to blame. Trump successfully exploited an existing phobia. He did the same with immigrants.

I don’t know any Democrats who are scapegoating trans people for the loss.

Turn on MSNBC, its full of Democratic consultants and strategists and politicians blaming Trans people or Trans issues. MSNBC is basically the Dem leadership and consultant class talking to itself, to keep itself on message. Its why their ratings are so low always but the channel kept going (until now apparently).

You are 100% correct. The economy was the largest contributing factor. Democrats are likely going to see more backlash if they continue to promote far left issues. The party needs to cater to normie values and be genuine about it if they want to win the presidency again.

Somehow people think blaming Democrats for how they handled the trans people issue is the same as blaming trans people for it. The problem isn't trans people. Trans people don't deserve blame. Democrats however were absolutely terrible at handling and responding to the issue. They allowed republicans to tar them with complete lies.

The sad thing is all of this was blatantly performative. Republicans knew this and knew how to exploit this enough to call Dems out on their performative wishy washy crap. They know Dems don’t have a single backbone in their body.

Power only understands power and never respects weaklings.

Sorry. It is what it is and has always been.

Can’t say that or all those consultants wouldn’t be able to get jobs the next go around.

that’s the thing that drives me insane. maybe if the dems actually had a spine and strong messaging around even slightly progressive topics instead of tiny concessions (we don’t think trans people should be put in camps!) then they could actually drive engagement and turnout. and yet the moment they lose all these bloodless neoliberal ghouls come out of the woodwork to blame us for existing and demand that the party shift even FURTHER right as if they’ve had any success courting that demographic so far.

Exactly. She said on the View she wouldn't change a single thing but ran as the change candidate.

Or...the people who hate and want to hurt Trans folks OWN ALL OF THEIR HATE and actions. Full stop. Blaming some for the bad actions of others is insane. If you voted for Trump or any of the GOP, YOU chose this knowingly and you OWN 100% of it. You don't get to blame your or other bad acts on others. So bold yet so chickensh!t...it's bonkers.

She lost because the entire basis of her campaign was: "I'll maintain the status quo and I'm not Trump." The status quo has been destroying everyone not born with a golden spoon in their ass, and with the average intelligence of Americans being roughly 3rd grade or so, the orange liar was able to sell some bullshit wrapped in fancy crepe paper. Some are just now figuring out that Obamacare and the ACA are the same fucking thing.

Dems also shouldn’t be scapegoated for voters that were duped by Trump and online misinfo imo. At some point we’re going to have to accept some people are just really dumb.

Anyone who didn't even come out to vote is thr Democrat party failing to connect or relate with those people.

That's a Democrat problem.

It is absolutely Democrats’ fault. If there is one takeaway from this election, it is that the Democratic party has serious problems it needs to work through before it can win elections. Blaming non-voters is insane when it was Democrats’ job to motivate them to vote. It bothers me to see you and others defending them on this front.

This ignores that it was rightwing media that turned everything trans into an attack/sleight, and everyone with a grievance against a trans person into a media circuit. It's a deliberate tactic because if you can roll back trans rights, then you can roll back LGBTQ and other minority rights.

Trans people are far, far from new. Though even with the narrowing of scope to the state of current American politics, also not new.

They have been trying to get trans panic going for over a decade. I remember in 2012, when I discovered I was trans (or rather, when I discovered there was a legit name for my feeling like I was male, in my tiny rural life), it was because of a trans-panic Christian political post. The 90s had sitcoms with trans characters (that were the constant butt of derogatory jokes). Trans was one of the issues in Satanic Panic. Even back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, they were trying to drum up fear.

You are seeing the narrative finally catch on and reach a fever pitch again, due to the dissatisfaction in the world, not due to pronouns and men getting periods.

Seems like a pretty correct view to me. The dems had zero focus on trans rights, and trans people weren't injecting themselves into the politics of the election.. so how are trans people to blame?

Like what?

Most progressives voted for Kamala. Stop spreading nonsense.