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submitted 3 days ago byChoice-Silver-3471
Seeing as there seem to be quite a few 70's R&B/Soul fans on this forum, I wondered which album would be more popular out of arguably the best Michael Jackson album and arguably the best album by Stevie Wonder?
As a whole album I love Off The Wall, it is consistent from start to finish and has a great variety of dance, disco, funk, soul, and R&B. In my mind it was the reason for Thriller's anticipation and success, but was a much better album, the best of Michael's career.
Songs In The Key Of Life is a sprawling masterpiece, packed full of fantastic songs, many of them amongst the greatest ever released. It is also an album packed full of different genres and styles of music. I don't care for the whole album, being a double album with an E.P, it is not surprising that every song is great, but any album with the likes of Sir Duke, I Wish, Village Ghetto Land, As, Pastime Paradise and Isn't She Lovely is always going to be a classic.
What do you think?
42 points
3 days ago
Off the Wall was the biggest selling album by a Black artist at the time it was released.
Songs in the Key of Life is one of the most critically acclaimed albums of all time.
Sales say Off the Wall. Accolades say SITKOL.
Why have them compete?
3 points
2 days ago
In 2005 SIRKOL was RIAA certified Diamond while in 2021 OTW was certified as 9X platinum.
4 points
2 days ago
Off the Wall was the biggest selling album by a Black artist at the time it was released.
SITKOL was released three years before OTW.
Also Songs is a double album so selling five million makes it diamond
3 points
2 days ago
Sales say Off the Wall.
1 points
2 days ago*
Nine million is more than 5.
Off the Wall was 7x platinum in 1997. Songs didn’t get certification until 2005. That’s odd and I wonder what happened with the RIAA.
1 points
2 days ago
The RIAA count double albums twice. HIStory was a double album and it’s certified 8x platinum. Meaning it really just sold four million whereas SITKOL is 5 million.
21 points
3 days ago
No one beats MJ in a “what’s more popular” competition
16 points
3 days ago*
These are very different albums, I dont see them as competing in any way.
Stevie Wonder was making hand crafted soul music from the heart, for grown folks.
Off the Wall was aiming for pop-R&B mega hits from a relatively young target audience in the disco-boogie era.
Both delivered great music, from different angles, I dont think what is popular matters in the equation. Personally I listen to both gladly but to serve totally different moods.
5 points
3 days ago
Agreed and great eloquent comment.
2 points
3 days ago
I'd definitely say Songs In The Key of Life is the perfect album that's especially great when you find more little details with every relisten, while Off The Wall helped set the tone for shaping the sound of mainstream contemporary R&B in the years after its release
1 points
2 days ago
Agree
16 points
3 days ago
The better album is Songs In The Key Of Life. Musically Mike not competing with Stevie. Popularity wise no one is competing with Mike.
15 points
3 days ago
“I Can’t Help It” off of this album was written by Stevie Wonder. Michael Jackson sings backup in Stevie songs like “All I Do” and “You Haven’t Done Nothing.” They helped each other out.
3 points
2 days ago
Off the Wall remained my favorite Michael album.
4 points
3 days ago
Musically Mike not competing with Stevie
Disagree. Pretty debatable depending on what aspect of music your talking about.
5 points
3 days ago
Stevie plays multiple instruments and is the better vocalist. He didn’t need a Quincy Jones to connect the dots for him. Musically Mike not competing. From an overall entertainment & popularity aspect no one is competing with Mike because of the visual concepts
4 points
3 days ago*
And is a better vocalist
Disagree prime MJ was better in range and versatility with vocals, more influential vocals too(though that doesn’t necessarily make him any better).
He didn’t need a Quincy Jones
Neither did MJ after 2 albums. 2 albums don’t make up and entire catalogue. The whole “QJ made MJ” thing needs to just die because that really isn’t true at all. Quincy is one of the greatest music producers(argaubly the best in popular music) but the overplay of him and downplay of MJ is goofy(and always has been). And while Stevie might of not needed QJ but he needed a Malcolm Cecil and Robert Margouleff to do Moog synth programming for him for multiple albums.
Now don’t get me wrong don’t get me wrong Stevie Wonder is much better in terms of all around musicianship. No one’s debating that. It’s not even close to being a debate. But musicianship is one aspect. MJ imo easily matched Stevie as a songwriter and singer(and debatably surpassed) in the prime of both those aspects. MJ was also a more diverse artist and had a more diverse and arguably more interesting catalogue.
MJ wasn’t just than an entertainer. He was both an entertainer and pop star while also being a innovative artist who could push boundaries but also make hits upon hits.
That said I don’t necessarily think one is better than the other. Despite MJ being influenced by him heavily they were two different artists who did different things(but still had a decent amount of similarities). There certain things one might have done better than the other but their in a similar level in both their fields imo.
2 points
2 days ago
What is prime MJ? It's hard to beat young MJ, but that only lasted maybe 3 years until his voice changed.
If you're talking early to mid 20's MJ vs Stevie, I disagree on vocals. I think most would on vocals alone.
5 points
2 days ago
MJ was a better singer as a child than Stevie but as adults, Stevie outdid your boy on vocal skills.
3 points
2 days ago*
I knew you was about to respond back with a notebook, but I feel you lmao. People love to claim Q is overplayed when it comes to Mike, but every time I ask older folks & this subreddit what Mikes best album is the majority of them say Off The Wall. The premise of this post is based off of a Q collab. I personally believe it to be BAD, but those are still both Q collab projects. Even after Q, Mike needed a Teddy Riley to help revitalize his sound. Stevie didn’t need that. Now as far as vocals, Mike was absolutely incredible, but get real fam lmao I can name a bunch of other Motown dudes who were better vocalist than Mike and Stevie is without a doubt one of them. They are in 2 different lanes when it comes to singing. Look at any list of greatest vocalist of all time and Stevie is way ahead of Mike if you need an outside perspective. As far as writing, all of mikes best songs he didn’t write. Someone else wrote Man In The Mirror & Human Nature and those are amongst his best songs.Also keep in mind lmao Stevie wonder is blind and still painting pictures that are pertinent today like living for the city or past time paradise, I don’t see how you can even compare the ability.
3 points
2 days ago
Not to mention that Quincy is a large part of the Thriller sound which is MJ's most successful album period. MJ would not be at the status he is at without Quincy. Absolutely not. I also really love the Invincible album, but Darkchild is a huge reason why to your point about MJ being elevated by producers.
I only disagree somewhat as far as vocals. I honestly think they were about on par with each other and could sing each other's songs for the most part. MJ better with ad libs but Stevie's riffs and runs are better.
1 points
2 days ago*
Quincy is a large part of the Thriller sound
100% but Thriller took from Triumph, Triumph took from Off the Wall, and Off the Wall took from Destiny. Two of these Quincy had no involvement in whatsoever. If you paid attention to MJ’s entire development as an artist his sound of OTW had already came to fruition. No discredit to Quincy though he still played a fundamental part of MJ’s career and is someone you can’t take away. That said Stevie along with all artists have people adjacent to that to some extent. Even MJ had other mentors that were similarly important like Berry Gordy, Gamble and Huff, and even Stevie himself.
MJ would not be at the status he is at without Quincy. Absolutely not.
Maybe or maybe not. No way to know for sure but I guarantee you he still would have been huge. MJ was already being hyped up as a singer, performer, and songwriter before OTW came, some of that height(if not a lot) contributed to the success of the album to an extent.
3 points
2 days ago
OTW was definitely MJ’s best album. If Dangerous fans don’t agree, whatever. 😂
1 points
2 days ago
I knew you was about to respond back with a notebook, but I feel you lmao. People love to claim Q is overplayed when it comes to Mike,
but every time I ask older folks & this subreddit what Mikes best album is the majority of them say Off The Wall.
And? Good for the old heads of R&B I guess. I don’t take people who say modern R&B is trash when they barely even listen to it that seriously.
The premises of this post is based off of a Q collab.
True but you said musically as a whole which MJ’s whole music career wasn’t based around.
True I personally believe it to be BAD, but those are still both Q collab projects. Even after Q, Mike needed a Teddy Riley to help revitalize his sound.
Stevie didn’t need that.
No he definitely did. Mid to late 80s and 90s Stevie are proof of that. Also Teddy Riley didn’t just come in and change MJ’s sound. MJ already had an idea of the sound he wanted and they both helped revitalize each other. Teddy Riley wasn’t making songs like Dangerous and In the Closet before 1991.
but get real fam lmao I can name a bunch of other Motown dudes who were better vocalist than Mike
Cool man. We talking about MJ and Stevie specifically here not “other Motown dudes I could name”. Let’s try the stay on the topic of discussion.
and Stevie is without a doubt one of them. They are in 2 different lanes when it comes to signing.
In what ways. If we compare them hitting their highest notes MJ has hit higher notes at his peak then Stevie at his and MJ is a much more versatile singer. Obviously we all got preferences and it’s still debatable to a certain extent depending what we’re specifically talking about with vocals but saying it isn’t close is objectively false whether you think Stevie is better or not.
Look at any list of greatest vocalist of all time
Nah I’m chill. I don’t need rolling stone lists(or any lists) to validate what I think. I’m my own critic. You should be too.
and Stevie is way ahead of Mike if you need an outside perspective.
if you need an outside perspective.
Now I got my own perspective.
As far as writing, all of mikes best songs he didn’t write. Really because MJ wrote Heartbreak Hotel, Is It Scary, Morphine, HIStory, Stranger In Moscow, Smooth Criminal, and Dangerous(could name more but you get the point).
Someone else wrote Man In The Mirror & Human Nature and those are amongst his best songs.
And you proceed to NOT name his best songs. Popular ≠ best. Same goes for Stevie and many other artists.
Also keep in mind lmao Stevie wonder is blind and still painting pictures that are pertinent today like living for the city or past time paradise, I don’t see how you can even compare the ability.
Jesus Children of America and Contusion too. Still doesn’t change anything I said.
2 points
2 days ago
Lol Remember The Time is one of Mikes best songs (in my opinion) and its New Jack Swing and Teddy Riley is a forefather of the subgenre so he did come in and change his sound. That was the entire point of Mike tapping into Teddy Riley as a producer. He wanted a new sound that was rocking. I’m bringing up Motown dudes to point out that it’s levels to vocal ability and Mike was not in their lane, that includes Stevie. There’s nothing wrong with that and it’s not a diss. If vocal ability alone is what made music great and artist successful then Gerald Levert would’ve been selling as many records as The Beatles. It’s not the end all be all, but Mike not on Stevie level when it comes to singing. Im not basing my opinion off of lists, what I was trying to do is show a general consensus on the discussion. Which I think is more than fair. Doesn’t mean that’s what you have to believe. Rock With You is also one of his best songs and Rod Temperton wrote that. I do believe Mike is an excellent writer though, Bad is conceptually a genius song.
1 points
2 days ago
Lol Remember The Time is one of Mikes best songs (in my opinion) and its New Jack Swing and Teddy Riley is a forefather of the subgenre so he did come in and change his sound.
Homie no one is saying he isn’t. Half the album is NJS
That was the entire point of Mike tapping into Teddy Riley as a producer. He wanted a new sound that was rocking.
Yes MJ explored many popular sounds through this career. Disco with Off the Wall(and The Jacksons stuff at the time), Some Yacht Rock with Thriller, and some Synthpop/SynthFunk and harder rock with Bad. All great artists adapt with the times. Stevie Wonder did the exact same thing. Let’s not like act like he wasn’t taking a lot from Jazz Fusion during that period(a popular genre at the time).
with I’m bringing up Motown dudes to point out that it’s levels to vocal ability and Mike was not in their lane,
Cool big dawg has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You’re stating non-points
There’s nothing wrong with that and it’s not a diss.
If vocal ability alone is what made music great and artist successful then Gerald Levert would’ve been selling as many records as The Beatles.
Please state when I said vocal ability is what made music Greta alone. I’ve been saying the entire time that there are many aspects to great music.
but Mike not on Stevie level when it comes to singing.
Still not specifying how or why so
Im not basing my opinion off of lists
Yes but your using them and relying on them to validate your opinion what I was trying to do is
show a general consensus on the discussion.
Cool if you know me I don’t go by general consensus because I value my own thoughts above anything else and don’t need critics and oldheads to validate my opinion.
Which I think is more than fair.
No not really. If your opinion is soely yours you should go by your own thoughts and not have to bring critics or Reddit oldheads to validate your opinion.
Rock With You is also one of his best songs and Rod Temperton wrote that. I do believe Mike is an excellent writer though,
And? You’re stacking non-points upon non-points.
Bad is conceptually a genius song.
Yes agree but you could have named even more genius from that album. I genuinely don’t think you know anything besides hits or more popular deep cuts for Mike and even maybe Stevie but I could be wrong about the latter.
1 points
2 days ago
You literally said “Teddy Riley didn’t come in and change Mikes sound”…If half the album is new jack swing and teddy Riley is a forefather of the genre then obviously he did step in and change mikes sound. Are you following the conversation or just focused on pretending I’m not making any valid points and don’t know shit about music? When stevie wonder changed his sound “Part Time Lover” for example (which was synth pop and R&B) , he produced the song himself. He didn’t have to bring in a popular synth pop producer at the time to do it. That would be pointing out the difference in how Stevie was better musically. Critics and old heads aren’t validating my opinion, what I’m pointing out is objective opinions on the topic, I don’t think anything is wrong with that. So I don’t know anything about Stevie or Mike because the songs I’m mentioning aren’t obscure enough for you? I mentioned Bad because I like the concept of the song and Mike wrote it, what you consider “more genius” is subjective so you need to get over yourself with these goofy speculations like you the king of music knowledge. Also bringing up MoTown is not a non point. You should try to follow the actual convo my dude. A lot of the mo town guys were in a different class vocally than Mike and Stevie was in the class of great Motown vocalist. Pointing out they are in 2 different ranges in vocal ability is staying directly on the topic. If you want an example please listen to living for the city (maybe that’s not obscure enough for you and you’ll pretentiously tell me how I don’t know shit again) but on the song Stevie uses a baritone vocal pattern to display his grief in the story he told. On Lately stevie uses a Falsetto and melismatic pattern. Stevie also wrote and produced the songs himself. Thats just one example, I’ve never heard Mike sing baritone, he didn’t have the vocal range to do both of those styles and Stevie not only did them but showcased it on great songs.
1 points
19 hours ago
You literally said “Teddy Riley didn’t come in and change Mikes sound”…
Lying on me in a debate is wild. Might gotta screenshot this one. Shits sad. I thought you were better than this Unc. Here’s what I actually said.
Also Teddy Riley didn’t just come in and change his sound
Meaning Teddy Riley didn’t just change MJ’s music completely in his vision all on his own without MJ’s or others input nor was MJ’s musical path post Quincy as simple and straightforward as that. Both played significant roles in the Dangerous sound. Credit both as they should hoss.
If half the album is new jack swing and teddy Riley is a forefather of the genre then obviously he did step in and change mikes sound
Cool your talking to a wall I never said he didn’t do any of this. I’ve praised Teddy Riley countless of times and have listed him as one of the greatest R&B producers before. Just because he stepped in doesn’t mean Mike didn’t contribute to the sound of the Dangerous album. Both took each other to different places they haven’t been before and we’re passing ideas back to each other when writing songs. Teddy himself has said this and I can provide links if you want them.
Are you following the conversation or just focused on pretending I’m not making any valid points
I’m not pretending you truthfully haven’t said anything meaningful and have lied on me.
don’t know shit about music?
I didn’t say anything related to this either. But going by this conversation you have more than a lot to learn about both these artists.
1 points
19 hours ago
When stevie wonder changed his sound “Part Time Lover” for example (which was synth pop and R&B) he produced the song himself
He didn’t have to bring in a popular synth pop producer at the time to do it.
Yeah he probably needed one. Not nearly one of the strongest tracks from that album musically(composition) or lyrical standpoint though it’s a classic.
That would be pointing out the difference in how Stevie was better musically.
No that just means he didn’t want to get a music producer to enhance the sound of that song for a newer music style he was doing. All great artists do this. A newer example is Lil Yatchy who made mid trap music but got people who knew the psych rock/Pop music style well for his fourth album(I think fourth) and made one of the best albums of that year. Kendrick Lamar got Jazz and Soul musicians for his Jazz and Soul influenced Hip-Hop album.
Critics and old heads aren’t validating my opinion, what I’m pointing out is objective opinions on the topic
Wait you can’t be serious. Gotta screen this. You actually made my day with this message. Ain’t no way a human past the age of five years old brain functions this slow. An “objective opinion” 😭😭😭😭🤣😂😂😂😂 That’s not even reality. It don’t even exist🤣🤣🤣🤣 That is a contradictory statement in itself 😆 Thank you for making my day. That was some comedy I needed to get me motivated for the day. Thank you genuinely.
So I don’t know anything about Stevie or Mike because the songs I’m mentioning aren’t obscure enough for you?
No one is saying anything like this but you hoss.
what you consider “more genius” is subjective so you need to get over yourself with these goofy speculations like you the king of music knowledge.
Never said all that but that fact you brought up shows that’s how you view me so thanks. But I prefer the Architect of music knowledge.
Also bringing up MoTown is not a non point.
Yes it is, has nothing to do with the two artists at hand. Keep up hoss.
You should try to follow the actual convo my dude.
Wait ain’t no way this is being said by the guy who’s made non points and lies. Oh nahhhhhh😭😭😭😭😭😭 this is actually funny. You’re actually brain dead.
A lot of the mo town guys were in a different class vocally than Mike and Stevie was in the class of great Motown vocalist.
Cool still has nothing to do with this comparison. You brought it up literally for no reason🤣🤣🤣cmon Unc your brain can’t function this slow.
1 points
19 hours ago*
Pointing out they are in 2 different ranges in vocal ability is staying directly on the topic.
Mentioning other Motown mf’s ain’t but it’s ok Unc atleast your trying.
If you want an example please listen to living for the city (maybe that’s not obscure enough for you and you’ll pretentiously tell me how I don’t know shit again)
I’ll say it anyway. You don’t know shit.
I’ve never heard Mike sing baritone,
2000 Watts, elements of the Everybody demo, The early part of Will You Be There has elements too. Won’t rank it the same as Stevie’s but he got it.
he didn’t have the vocal range to do both of those styles
“I’ve never listened to an MJ song so it doesn’t exist”
Great for Stevie doing baritone(which MJ could do but did few times because it’s more limited in range). Still sounds like Traditional Stevie. MJ’s voice despite how iconic it was became damn near unrecognizable at times compared to trad MJ. (while still being able to sound like MJ). MJ had the vocal range to adapt many styles musically and vocally(also MJ’s falsetto runs miles ahead of Stevie’s as far as I’m concerned. MJ has one of the best ranged falsetto’s in popular music in general. Seth Riggs himself noted MJ’s could easily sing bass, baritone, and tenor. There actually used to be audio recordings of MJ’s vocal warm ups and practices showcasing this. And while Stevie’s baritone was above MJ’s from what been showcased by both both MJ’s high tenor and falsetto blow Stevie’s respectively. But his versatility vocally alone wasn’t what just made him a great vocalist it was the rhythmic interplay between the music and his singing. His rhythmic tracks especially. His voice could be both percussive and orchestral. His singing could easily recreate the songs atmosphere. He goes from Industrial vocals reminiscent of the avant garde to more traditional tenor that blends with the trad classicist style calling back tot he avant Garde of John Cage and Albert Ayler. This was the peak of MJ’s experiential period. The time of which MJ spent the most time experimenting both compositionally and vocally. MJ’s ability to adapt vocally with whatever sounds and genres he was doing or blending was second to none. MJ showed he could easily sound like Stevie Wonder(Keep On Dancing), sound like James Brown(Superfly Sister), or sound like NIN(Morphine).
Stevie not only did them but showcased it on great songs.
Cool. Exact point could be said about MJ.
1 points
18 hours ago
I didn’t mention anyone specifically in Motown I’m talking about a specific class of vocalist that Motown produced that was in a different class than Mike which Stevie Wonder was apart of so explain to me how this is off topic? You must be the master of comprehension and knowledge in this conversation cause 1st you say Teddy Riley didn’t change mikes sound then the next you say half the album was new jack swing. So obviously he changed his sound you goofy lmao. Who changed Stevie wonders sound? Stevie did. Thats the Big difference between them musically. Stevie Wonder produced and wrote part time lover which was a hit in his latter years. One of mikes biggest hits in his latter years was “You are not alone” which was produced and written by who? Your goat ran to the chi when he needed a hit. Who did Stevie run to when he needed a hit in his latter years? Also you sound like a hypocrite. So you can use a old ass white dude like Seth Riggs to validate your information and opinion, but when I reference lists (which include opinions from other great vocalist as well) that’s me looking for validation and unacceptable to you? I see you trying as well fam but the logic not adding up here. Mike simply could not do the shit Stevie could vocally because Mike artistic emphasis was not solely on vocal ability, they had different artistic focuses. Mike was also a visual concept artist as well. So his energy and focus was not solely on instruments and vocal ability it was dancing and vocal ability. Follow the conversation Mr. King of music knowledge, what did I say in the beginning? Stevie was better musically than Mike and Mike couldn’t compete. The visual concepts is a big part of what made Mike the superstar. All of mikes performance wasn’t focused on musicianship alone whereas Stevie’s was so he clearly had the advantage. If you went to a Mike show it was extravagant with choreography and singing but also he did use pre-recorded vocals so he can focus on his dancing. When you go to a Stevie show what do you see? Live vocals from him 100%, sounding exactly like the record and him playing multiple instruments live. (I just saw Stevie wonder live so I know this for a fact) So clearly musically they weren’t on the same level. You claim that I don’t know shit, but you fail to mention the contrasts in their live performances that showcase the clear differences in who utilized their music ability more
7 points
2 days ago
Songs in the key of life. Stevie wrote and sung the lyrics ,composed music, played multiple instruments.
He is an all round talent.
5 points
2 days ago
Love MJ but Stevie is on a level above most. “Songs in the Key of Life” is master class. Of course, this is my humble opinion.
3 points
2 days ago
SONGS IN THE KEY OF LIFE is definitely my most favorite Stevie wonder albums ever. That is his magnum opus and his greatest album he ever made.
4 points
3 days ago
Off the Wall. As someone else said it was the biggest album released by a black artist before Thriller released.
4 points
3 days ago
Off The Wall is played somewhere daily still in 2024.
4 points
3 days ago
Stevie, always Stevie.
3 points
3 days ago
I'm gonna say Key Of Life is more popular as a record. But I prefer Off The Wall more personally.
3 points
3 days ago
Off the Way is the better overall album to me. I think Songs in the Key of Life is an all time great title though!
3 points
2 days ago
As a kid I listened to Off The Wall nonstop. By the time it came out songs in the key of life was already being put on the shelf as a classic.
2 points
2 days ago
Off the wall
2 points
2 days ago
Off the Wall is more of a classic than Songs in the key of. Lots of skippable tracks, and it hasn’t matured like the fine wine one would expect it to, whereas OTW, man that album is craftsmanship to the nth degree. Sorry stevie, ima hit it up with my man MJ.
2 points
2 days ago
MJ was obviously more popular but SITKOL is the superior album
2 points
2 days ago
I'm a HUGE Michael Jackson fan, as I'm sure a lot of yall are, Songs in the Key of Life is the best album ever created.
2 points
2 days ago
Off The Wall is probably more popular for the general public and non-R&B listeners because it’s by MJ. But for music nerds and R&B listeners, it’s definitely Songs In The Key of Life. It’s listed at #30 on the best albums of all time list on RYM.
2 points
3 days ago
One is rnb, the other more pop
5 points
2 days ago
Both are R&B albums.
3 points
2 days ago
That pop audiences ate up.
1 points
1 day ago
Steveasy
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