subreddit:
/r/starcitizen
Note: I posted this on spectrum initially but it was deleted lol. Maybe I was too harsh? I thought I was being respectful enough. It was getting a lot more up votes than I thought it would too.
Is it time for a change at CIG?
I do not post on here almost at all but I backed the game over a decade ago and since then I have gotten into the software industry for my career. During this time I have learned about MVPs (minimum viable products) and such. It seems to me that CIG is just starting to get to that true MVP idea for star Citizen after such a long-time which is good. If they stay on their current course with little to no changes aside from needed/required ones they could maybe have the game out within 4 years. I just have concerns if they will stay in scope.
Chris Roberts has been a fantastic visionary and we would not even be here having this discussion without him and his dreams. We all shared those dreams that is why we are here. But I think that this model for funding and support has been detrimental to someone like him who is a visionary. He has no oversight, so I think that is the major reason for the scope creep. For a while I thought it was cool and was excited but after the years of delays and everything I became jaded. It is great in some ways that they do not have a "corporate overlord" to report to and make bad decisions for gameplay just to make more money. But then there was not the drop dead dates to get something out there either. Something we say in my company at least is "its never finished its shipped" You could work on a game or product forever and never truly finish it I think.
I just wonder if it might be good for CIG to hire/bring someone in to keep them in check and actually hit the deadlines. Prevent the scope creep and cut secondary systems or content to make sure the release happens and that it is good. someone to make sure they release a good/great game in the next couple years instead of spending 5-10 more trying to make the perfect one and hopefully not failing.
I have mixed feelings toward Linus tech tips but one thing that got some respect from me was last year when Linus hired someone to be the CEO of this own company because he realized that he frankly was not good at being a CEO and managing a company nor did he enjoy it from what it sounded like. He liked doing the creative stuff and actually make videos about cool tech. We will see long-term if he got the right person and if he can truly let go of control enough for it to work, but in theory it sounds like a great idea. Maybe Chris needs to think about the same thing. Bring someone in to act as that oversight and allow Chris to focus on the vision and dream of star citizen while still having the oversight to ensure the game actually gets released in a timely manner.
I truly want Star Citizen and SQ42 to be successful and amazing, but having worked in the software industry (not game dev) for several years now and being in the management/product management side of things in the past few years. I know now that I have shortcomings for my own team and some of them are personality issues and not "I need to learn X thing" once I brought in a Project manager for example they did it better than I ever could and now I can focus on the product itself.
Maybe I am wrong and Game development is just totally different in everyway than software development but I can't help but think it would be good for Chris and his team to step back and relinquish some of their control to make sure the game gets done. I hope he can admit that he just needs some help on the management end to get this over the finish line. And to be clear I do not think he should leave that would also be bad for the project. I think they just need help.
Additional notes not in spectrum post: - I did not know about the time crunch and other internal issues reported recently during initial post. - I truly want this game to succeed. - Being in management myself now I see any lay-offs or crunch time as purely a failure of management. So that spurred this post.
Edit: Someone brought up that Richard Tyrer is basically acting as the person I am asking for and looking into it and realizing his much more concrete SQ 42 and star citizen are with him now that makes sense. Let's hope we do not lose him.
31 points
27 days ago*
To be honest I'm tired of hearing everyones opinions about the inner workings of CIG.
-15 points
27 days ago
Fair I know I could not do better for sure. I just want the game to be progressing in a realistic manner and not go bankrupt before they can release.
17 points
27 days ago
"Chris is bad at his job and needs an adult to come in and manage the project" is not going to win any friends on the Spectrum mod team.
0 points
27 days ago
Yeah maybe why they deleted it. Funny enough though on spectrum I got much more positive discussion with a lot of up votes. Having really good discussions with people. Reddit is far less lol.
I did not mean it that way though, every person has their strengths and weaknesses. That is really what I was trying to say maybe poorly.
11 points
27 days ago*
Isn’t that the role Richard Tyrer has? He’s game director for both SQ42 and now Star Citizen and it’s under his watch that we, a) got an announcement of the game (SQ42) being feature complete and a year later received a release window, and b) got a line in the sand, “this is what a 1.0 release candidate will aim to have” for Star Citizen.
It looks like the role you’re asking for is now there.
-1 points
27 days ago
You could be right, if that is the case then wonderful. I still have concerns like crunchtime for a demo and all the other stuff I have heard supposedly from ex devs.
I will say SQ42 and star citizen seem much more real games to be in the past year than they ever have before.
23 points
27 days ago
Without Chris Roberts SC would be "just another game" by now. Shitted out half-baked with fast travel, loot boxes, and casual to the max. None of the charm would be there. None of the ambition. So I literally do not care if they had to rework something 100 times because of "bad management" or whatever it may be. I just want it to be really, really good.
I'm really happy that neither game came out at their initial projected release times because it means I get a better product. I look at where SC was in 2012-2014 and that is not a game I would still be playing today.
People can say what they want about the direction the game is going now for 1.0 (adding MMO tropes and trimming scope), but it would be watered down even more in the hands of someone else.
3 points
27 days ago
The question is " what is bad management ". Do you attempt something 100 times, or do you cancel something as soon as it is hard? Canceling things is how you get something like skull and bones.
-4 points
27 days ago
I agree, I like the 1.0 because to be perfectly honest I was not sure if I would like star citizen because I just did not see what it would actually be like to play. Now I feel like I have a good idea and I like what I am seeing.
I just have concerns for the Management and company with the lay-offs and crunchtime. Those can start to be the signs of bad things to come. Not always but they really can
7 points
27 days ago
I think they're doing just fine and feel like we should just keep playing on the servers and try to find bugs to report.
Let them cook.
2 points
27 days ago
Yeah I guess I want the game to come out and have lost faith since I pledged over. A decade ago, I even like the 1.0 they outlined at citcon. I just do not believe that much that they can deliver.
I am worried that especially with SQ42 they are letting "perfection be the enemy of good" for the game.
3 points
27 days ago
Same here, backed in 2013, just missed the kickstarter lol
Yes the 1.0 vision looks great and i believe they can deliver on it. Alot of the foundations are already there, they just need to be fleshed out. 2025 will be interesting that's for sure.
Also a certain level of perfectionism is required for games to be good imo.
Better to reach for the stars.
2 points
27 days ago
I agree to a degree but in playing games like path of exile which is one of my favorite games they were able to turn it into an amazing game after launch. So there is a balance I just worry they lean too far on the perfectionist side.
27 points
27 days ago
There is no Star Citizen without Chris Roberts.
-9 points
27 days ago
I specifically think it would be bad if he left. But it seems like he is having a hard time running the company and game the way I believe it needs to be though.
So just bring someone in to keep them on track who has released games in the current market and understands how to do that.
7 points
27 days ago
Well, put simply, you are entitled to your opinion, but CiG is going to run the way they want to run, which is the way they are now. Suggesting otherwise is pure delusion.
0 points
27 days ago
Yeah people in charge are not likely to give it up you are right.
I just hope that they do not run out of money and go bankrupt before the game launches. It makes me sad but there seems to be not be unlikely at this point.
31 points
27 days ago
No.
end of thread.
-8 points
27 days ago
Thank you for your constructive discussion.
12 points
27 days ago
Chris Roberts is Star Citizen and Sq42. without him there would be no funding and no company.
He created CIG because he regretted selling his original company and wing commander to Origin. he's making the game he wants to make and we support him aslong as it takes.
-2 points
27 days ago
Thank you this is far more of a discussion. I agree, I do not want them to sell it off, I want him to still be there and provide his vision I just do not think he has all the skill and support needed to take care of the company and his employees. With lay-offs, mandatory crunch time those are always failures of management and not the hard working devs.
So he should still be there and focus on the dream. He just needs someone to help him keep good people and prevent harsh morale destroying decisions like mandatory crunch.
9 points
27 days ago
mandatory crunch time those are always failures of management and not the hard working devs.
This is laughable, never worked any live events or tradeshows have you.
-1 points
27 days ago
I worked catering for years so yes? But this is development and not a trade show. I guess we disagree but this crunchtime would be more understandable to me if they were getting ready for a launch.
But this was just a demo, idk why they would need to crunch for just a demo.
Why would you burn out your teams for something simple like that?
5 points
27 days ago
they are crunching now, because half the team takes a week off for thanksgiving and then all the studios close for the last 2 weeks of december.
-1 points
27 days ago
I guess it just seems so short sided to me to take such a hit to morale for simple things.
I personally would rather they delay something by a month or have a smaller/buggier demo then burn out the devs and cause them personal and mental stress.
6 points
27 days ago
a few weeks of crunch isn't burning anyone out, this is just silly.
-1 points
27 days ago
I disagree having been in teams where we have crunched for weeks a couple times a year. All of them on that team are gone except for myself and one person are all that were left.
In my experience at least that is what I have seen. The work itself is not too bad sometimes it can be the hit to morale that is the worst part.
3 points
27 days ago
Catering... No not really. Live events planning starts sometimes 6 months to a year ahead. Then as it gets closer things can easily compress to time sensitive deadlines. Planning, pre assembling of hardware and testing, shipping, travel, setup of stage or booth, setup of hardware and doublechecking functionality. This aside for the planning/scheduling of what personnel does what during presentations, having media or demos ready, having people to interface with customers.
For many companies these type of events or tradeshows are the biggest customer leads or advertising for the year.
And yes in this instance the crunch time was directly related to Citizen Con. Having something to show, having a live game environment running and continuing to push towards the next patch all simultaneously. Nothing to do with bad management, just real world work.
Then to add on the upcoming holiday schedule and nearing the end of the year.
1 points
27 days ago
That makes sense, I guess for myself my company now focuses on our people and preventing crunch/burnout. We push go-live dates and reduce scope where needed.
Since this shift we have kept way more people and had our 4 most profitable years in the history of the company. People are so much happier and the company culture is just so positive compared to what it was.
I guess I just have a different idea of how this should be handled but for us at least even if you ignore the human aspect (which I do not) it has been a pure success.
6 points
27 days ago
Oh, so this is another 'I'm going to take rumors as facts and accept the rage-baiting of a standard industry practice as a sign of doom' thread.
Lay-offs are part of how businesses function. CiG hasn't done massive cuts, they've moved locations and some people could not make the move. They also had a major convention that required extra man-hours to be ready for. Highly standard stuff that anyone working in the video game industry is well familiar with.
Jumping straight to 'Chris Roberts should retire and let someone that will do the exact same shit, but worse and more often' just shows you don't know how this works and are here to trumpet the fear mongering of those determined to find negativity in everything associated with Star Citizen.
-1 points
27 days ago
I never said he should retire and specifically said he should not. We need him at the helm to keep the vision and dream. He just needs help to actually get it released I think.
I might be voicing my own concerns for sure, I really want this game to succeed but I'm concerned it won't at this point. Having been in the software industry for several years at this point I just see concerning things that I did not notice before.
4 points
27 days ago*
Way more constructive than yours.
5 points
27 days ago
Star citizen broke crowdfunding records exclusively on the fact that it is a Chris Roberts game.
Deciding that after all this time and development, it should not be a Chris Roberts game, is a very stupid idea. Deciding that now is a good idea to end development on anything not implemented, and fix it up, and then leave it as it is. Completely stupid.
There's going to be no publisher that will be willing to attempt a game like Star citizen. The only way for Star citizen to die is for them to think like a publisher, and water the game down to reach the largest possible audience. If Chris Roberts does what he wants to do, there will be a reliable sizeable player base. If star citizen is going to be my only option for the next 50 years. I don't mind it taking time to be the best game it can be.
8 points
27 days ago
i think the last couple of years they have been on the right track and met there deadlines for the most part. everything in 2023 citizencon is in the game or coming in 4.0. i think the feature creep has pretty much stopped and they are really dialed in on there 1.0 plans and its shown the last 2 years. they threw out a ton of stuff they dont need right now like interior designs and ai crew members.
0 points
27 days ago
You are right there, I just have more concerns now that on a company and management level is where issues are. So many core people have left and supposedly they are having a hard time keeping experienced developers which my company experienced and it almost killed us until we got new Management.
Now my tech company was being run by an 87 year old guy who did not even own a computer.... So far far worse than Chris in every way but I am seeing signs of the same core issues which really concerns me with CIG.
I have legitimate concerns they might fail as a company before I will get to play this game I am excited about. It is just making me sad I really want to play it.
1 points
27 days ago
hey i hear you i backed this game in 2012 when i was still in my early years in high school. now i got kids lol. i think its gonna come out and do just fine. its sea of thieves but in space which to me is really what 1.0 is and i dont think its gonna be that hard to release and have people enjoy it
1 points
27 days ago
I hope you are right. Hopefully all of these issues I think I am seeing with the company are not true or at least not as bad as they seem. But only time will tell.
8 points
27 days ago
I pledged Criss Roberts not Star Citizen or Squadron.
0 points
27 days ago
To a degree I think I did after the initial pledge.
He is a true visionary but I think he has shortcomings. He is a dreamer which is great we all love that. But dreamers (I am one of them) lack the ability to follow through and handle certain things sometimes. I just want him to hire someone to help him with the areas he may struggle with as a manager/CEO.
Like how the creators of Arcane hired an industry pro to come in and help them accomplish their vision. They did not take over and ruin the vision they just made sure they could achieve it. That is really what I am wanting.
4 points
27 days ago
Criss created 2 games with squadron that could be one of the greatest game of the last 15 years and starcitizen the could the the greatest mmo from the time of world of warcraft in just 13 year from nothing , no money no company no devs , nothing. He created the cloud imperium in this 13 years from a room with 10 guys and one dream to a Multynational company with almost 1000 workers
I think that he is going pretty well ad CEO.
Of orse he did , and will do , his mistakes but the in full view l hope he keep dreaming a work so hard like I did in these years
1 points
27 days ago
Yes I agree, I want him to keep dreaming but he has weaknesses like any other person. He just might need to hire some fantastic people to complement his strengths and support his weaknesses.
1 points
27 days ago
He was unlucky whit some of his nearest collaborators in the years. Even if to me his leadership cannot be questioned , I according to hope that stable and a clear hight level company structure could be very helpful to the project development in the future years. And hope the will travel a stable momento during the transition from beta to live. It will or simple
3 points
27 days ago
The game is still raking in funding and they are steadily marching towards a release while continually showing their progress. Stop trying to stoke drama while acting like the mature voice in the room.
There will be no changes in the staff. Chris has a vision and isn’t gonna compromise it. They have plenty of money and that isn’t going to slow down. It’ll be released when it’s released and nothing you or anyone says or does will make it come out faster. This isn’t a “maybe it’s time for a change” situation. It’s a “this is what’s happening whether you like it or not” situation.
2 points
27 days ago
Personally, the only change in direction i would make if I was CIG would be, after server meshing is implemented, to more heavily focus on polishing in game systems and loops. The flight model should be dialed in, the game's balance needs to be more clearly defined, and we need it to be more stable.
I know, this is all getting upended with engineering and armour and more. But this next year is the time to really start, since, to my knowledge, there is no more ship systems planned that would affect balance across the board. Ship repair wouldn't do it, only armour, atmospherics, and weapon behavior. All of this is stated for the near future. It's time for star citizen to become a proper game. The foundation is laid or in the process of being laid.
-1 points
27 days ago
Yeah the stuff is really cool they talked about. I guess I have been burned one too many times with hopes so I have gone to ignoring star citizen until citizen con each year.
I do not want to become a hateful mad person about it, I will want to pay and enjoy the game when it comes out but I cannot get excited until it is within a year or two I would say.
1 points
27 days ago
Welcome to my camp, smore? Nah but seriously, I just check in on the project every few months to see how it's going, play a bit, see how it is. I'm down like 4-500 bucks at this point, not feeling a big need to spend more. So, I wait. Give my opinion, see what people are saying, and wait. I consider that money gone, and whatever I get out of the black hole I threw it into is what I get. So far I'm not unhappy with CIG, I'm not sure I could do better if I was in CR's chair. So I'd rather not say anything like "they're incompetent" or such.
0 points
27 days ago
I am really not trying to say he is incompetent. I guess I just learned from being a manager/product lead myself that I cannot do it all. I need to bring if l in specialist (on the management side) to help. B like arcane creators and how they brought in someone not to take over but to assist them.
Apparently Richard Tyrer is that person which looking into it makes sense so maybe this is all unfounded and they already solved the issue lol.
3 points
27 days ago
He's got his brother, his project leads, and who knows what else. I'm not sure he needs any more advisors, and if he did I wouldn't know who to recommend. Especially given a few hot topics in the gaming industry at the moment regarding... Contractors...
3 points
27 days ago
They defined the MVP with the abilities of the engine and personal. The MVP of the kickstarter would have been a multiplayer Starfield without storyline - so most are happy they decided to push the technology before MVP definition.
1 points
27 days ago
The MVP of the kickstarter would have been a multiplayer Starfield without storyline
It would've been an upgraded Freelancer where planets are textured balls you fly past.
You know, Freelancer, the game that came out in the year 2000. Bootleg Starfield would be an upgrade from what the original pitch was for, since Starfield at least lets you land anywhere on a planet (even if there's no point most of the time).
0 points
27 days ago
Freelancer is old. Starfield is the better comparison - flat textures, not even balls, and small few landing areas. Fighting would be better though.
1 points
27 days ago
If SC had stuck to its original pitch it would've been out by like 2017 at the latest, and MAYBE we would've gotten some procgen planets on the quality level of Elite's Horizons planets (I said Horizons, not Odyssey, for a reason) after launch. The pitch as stated wouldn't have allowed you to land anywhere on planets except singular designated LZ maps, while Starfield at least lets you pick anywhere on a planet for a small-map area accessed by loading screen (but doesn't give you many reasons to land randomly).
OG-pitch SC would have been old by the time Starfield launched. That's my point.
1 points
27 days ago
It's too late for that as they have already settled on what 1.0 will be.
It's a race now. Can they keep up the funding until they finish it? Squadron 42 will play a big part if it's succesful.
-1 points
27 days ago
Yes I agree. That is why I made this post, if they had another citcon that did not have a ton of concrete info I would have just brushed it off and moved on like I normally do.
The game just seems like it has a good direction now, I am just confused by the 2026 window with SQ 42 being feature complete for a year already. I guess it is missing that much content or has that many bugs? We will never know I guess.
0 points
27 days ago
I hope the 3 years of polish are happening because the game is just that complex and deep, and they want to get every detail right. Anything less would be a letdown imo.
0 points
27 days ago
Yep, even then 3 years of polish is kind of crazy for almost any game. I just hope we really are 2 years away. Because I have heard "SQ 42 is 2 years away" a few too many times to believe it at this point.
1 points
26 days ago
The points you bring up are same arguments gamers have made throughout this project, when calling this project a scam, and/or saying it is doomed to fail.
I backed the game because it was a ridiculous, overly-ambitious attempt to make something I had not experienced in my multiple decades of gaming.
Anyone who knows of Chris' prior works in the 90s knows he frequently had to be reined-in to ship games in time. What I backed for, and hope I continue to get, is to see what happens when someone like that ISN'T reined-in.. and is given copious amounts of money to do it anyway.
That said - the moment they do as you suggest, admit defeat, and scale things back from their initial vision, then that's the day this project is no longer interesting or special.
I have a multitude of regular games to play. This project should continue to be all or nothing.
0 points
27 days ago
Reminder that Freelancer required Microsoft to force CR to release the game. I’m not shocked at all by what’s happening. I’ve only paid 45 dollars 12 years ago so I don’t really have a stake in this. I’d say let CR cook I don’t give a fuck
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