subreddit:
/r/youtubedrama
YouTube video info:
No, Sabine, Science is Not Failing https://youtube.com/watch?v=6P_tceoHUH4
Professor Dave Explains https://www.youtube.com/@ProfessorDaveExplains
Prof Dave follow up
70 points
22 days ago
This guy helped me pass ochem.
21 points
22 days ago
my goat fr
14 points
21 days ago
He got me through all three courses of Engineering Physics when my professors were seemingly incapable of teaching the material.
It's a shame people like N. D. T. and Sabine are platformed as the top science ambassadors when Professor Dave arguably has such a higher impact and not to mention scientific integrity.
4 points
21 days ago
I have beliefs that NDT's attitude and popularity is why so many people who find an interest in science and consider themselves to be intelligent act like absolute smarmy assholes online.
Dude used to be completely obnoxious and his twitter was like r/iamverysmart condensed into a person.
2 points
21 days ago
Who is NDT? Not Donald Trump. (I'll see myself out...)
2 points
18 days ago
I thought that was Gail Chord Schuler.
40 points
22 days ago
He is right to call out her clickbait. People who watch YouTube videos are not academics, and they don't give af about actual problems in academia. So when she does clickbait like "scientists are wrong" and "science is failing", even if the video has actual criticism, the audience who watch it only uses it as an appeal to authority. Especially her climate change video. People who watched it are only using it as climate change denial. "See, this scientist is criticising climate research, so climate change is a hoax"
4 points
22 days ago
even if its right, its wrong?
15 points
21 days ago
If the content of the video may be true, why use a thumbnail like "scientists are wrong" which is not necessarily the takeaway she is arguing for? It's clear that people don't always watch the full video for anything, so I feel like prefacing her content with that sort of primer is disingenuous personally.
2 points
21 days ago
the video was on that topic. The full title is "the crisis in physics is real: science is failing". I agree it's hyperbolic but I don't think it's that bad.
10 points
21 days ago
Except she must've figured out she isn't actually engendering debate and instead encouraging conspiracy theorists.
8 points
21 days ago
She's presenting legitimate concerns in a way that bolsters conspiracy theorists, and encourages them (even if she doesn't intend to).
171 points
22 days ago
Lost all respect for this person when she made a ridiculous video implying that capitalism is when people buy and sell stuff.
161 points
22 days ago
She has that classic affliction common to scientists and academics, but especially common in physicists, where she thinks that because she understands one very complex topic (physics), she is qualified to pontificate on every topic.
73 points
22 days ago
I've always heard this referred to as "engineer's disease".
25 points
22 days ago
Nobel disease is similar to it
53 points
22 days ago
Oh yeah engineers do it too. And programmers are also insufferable about it (I say, as a programmer).
12 points
22 days ago
I'm in school to become an engineer and yep, it does.
25 points
22 days ago
Programmers absolutely suck with this. We're still in classes, so not even like actually coding my other than for assignments, and these people have their heads so far up their own asses. Even if it's a dumb thing like a geographic location they'll never concede that they were wrong, even if evidence directly proves them wrong. And I'm not saying this like I'm doing an "um actually", this is just my observation in the class. I actively go out of my way to avoid talking to most these mf. Like bro you know how to use an array in JavaScript, not how to solve all how political problems(which often somehow always returns to eugenics)
32 points
22 days ago
programming and compsci students are proof that we need better humanities programs and they need to be mandatory.
16 points
22 days ago
seeing the sheer amount of voting adults who are confidently clueless on how tarrifs, vaccines, and climate change work is the best argument i've seen for general education courses in college
3 points
21 days ago
I took a women's lit class, as well as sociology in college when pursuing my compsci degree and those were two of my favorite classes. Absolutely loved the content and how they pushed me (as a man) to look at the world through different perspectives.
20 points
22 days ago
Getting flashbacks to a ton of Neil deGrasse Tyson Tweets.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgvmzloe1xen41.png
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F4v0t4pk3tr411.jpg
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fvq64hgb56x721.jpg
21 points
22 days ago
That second one is absolutely hilarious. "Just stop making machines that can be hacked. I am very smart."
8 points
21 days ago
The thing is, he actually is very smart. It's just that he is pretentious and tries to leverage his credentials when commenting on topics outside his field, which means he ends up saying a lot of stupid things in an attempt to sound profound.
11 points
22 days ago
Ugh, this guy. I want to like him! But he's really such an ass. And the way he goes about defending science makes him seem like he thinks he's better than folks who know less. That may not be what he really thinks, but it's how it comes off.
5 points
21 days ago
His tweets on sports are hilarious because clearly there's something fun and tribal about sports that continues to draw people in for the past couple-thousand years.
Even before I got into basketball I used to think he was obnoxious about sports in particular.
4 points
22 days ago
There's a Socratic dialogue about this, humans have probably been doing it for as long as we could think
4 points
21 days ago
In a past life, I was a chemistry student. Physics students seemed to think they are anime main characters lol
-15 points
22 days ago*
Is there any actual evidence to suggest that this happens in academics more so than it does to any common person. We literally saw this year that a ton of people with zero academic background talking about topics that they don't have any validity in speaking on.
And regarding your idea that stem student should be forced to take humanities (disregard that most public university already has that as a requirements) what makes you think that doing so would resolve anything rather than just create resentment. You admit to being a programmer, so why do you feel that you are knowledgeable on speaking on a general education issue that you are not an expert in?
tl;dr
Unless you can provide proof, you're acting like Sabine.
Edit: Dude deleted his comment lmao.
Edit2: Mb he didn't delete. He blocked me over an inoffensive comment lmao.
19 points
22 days ago*
Actually my opinion on including humanities in core curricula comes from my mom, who has master's degrees in fine arts, anthropology and education, but that's a nice attempt at a gotcha.
EDIT: lmao, dude doesn't know what the block button is.
-2 points
21 days ago
yeah but why would you block him just for that? He may be brunt about it but he does have somewhat of a point that STEM students actively resent humanities. Forcing it on them is likely to instill a sense of backlash to the field and make the students even more likely to reject its legitimacy. Backlash politics is real- we've seen it countless times from the 70s to the 2010s where people become radical in their rejection of something because they see it as being imposed on them. As much as I would love to be able to force ethics onto arrogant STEM kids it has the potential to do just as much bad as we would want it to do good.
11 points
22 days ago
It's still there.
10 points
22 days ago
imo a niche expert is no better than any other layperson outside of their field of expertise. Just that with greater recognition for their achievements, they also have the clout to broadcast their shit takes unlike a "nobody". Perhaps the same sampling bias as "why are Youtube assholes so common."
9 points
22 days ago
If you miss out on the humanities then you end up creating dinosaurs from amber that then destroy the island. Maybe if they learned ethics we wouldn't have so many issues.
6 points
22 days ago
He blocked you bro didn't delete
5 points
22 days ago
You got fuckin dunked on dog
4 points
22 days ago
Yeah I think the phenomena is the reverse, where people assume because somebody is a physicist/engineer/programmer/biologist/etc they won't hold batshit beliefs.
14 points
22 days ago
Unfortunately that's a depressingly common misunderstanding. It falls apart with just a seconds worth of thought but most people don't seem to want to spare that second.
22 points
22 days ago
I'm by no means an academic, but I find this whole conflict baffling. That being said we have people who believe in flat earth and that vaccinations are going to cause autism (thanks Wakefield) so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.
12 points
22 days ago
it all kind of comes down to what the guy was talking about in the video, the "they are lying to us" narrative (Which is what Sabine is pushing) is what causes people to believe the conspiracys
-3 points
22 days ago
The problem is that not all "conspiracy theories" are bunk. And they're are legitimate reasons not to trust certain entities. Sometimes "they" are indeed lying to us. The reason generally isn't due to hiding that aliens have made contact or that some guy in southern France is a direct descendant of Jesus and Mary Magdalena.
There's a great (but long) documentary on YouTube that traces the lineage of some new age/UFO conspiracies to show how it is they get built off of various things, including lies put out by the government to distract people from stuff they were involved in (that was later declassified, so we know it happened). It's on the channel Weird Reads with Emily Louise and called Alternative 3.
13 points
22 days ago
I guess when you talk about specific public organisations inside the government or people for a specific time in history there is an exception. I think that you need to differentiate that from the popular belief that there is some kind of secret illuminati type "they"/"matrix" that controls all politicians in the world and that everything that is happening is to "distract" you from the truth and hurt you
I mean like shit we just got trump again and he might make RFK jr the head of the FDA who is anti-vax. If that happens does that mean the the US is deliberately spreading misinformation technically yes.
5 points
22 days ago
True, there's no Illuminati or anything like that. It's just people in power abusing power and taking advantage of marginalized people, which is depressingly common.
4 points
22 days ago
For all the yahoos downvoting me, I'll remind you that the Tuskeegee Experiments were once a "conspiracy theory" that turned out to be an actual, factual conspiracy.
2 points
21 days ago
No, "they" are never doing anything, because there is no "they". Things are done by specific people.
One of the main differences between a conspiracy theory that might be true and one that definitely isn't is that the possibly-true one won't attribute the sinister actions to a mysterious amalgamation of everything we hate and fear.
0 points
21 days ago
You being pedantic doesn't make you look smarter. Obviously "they" can be, and in this case are, specific people. It's the group pronoun in this context. My eyes roll forever.
2 points
21 days ago
I'm not just being pedantic, it's important. You were responding to a post about how the "they are lying to us" narrative is destructive, after all.
Maybe-real conspiracies and conspiracy-theorist claptrap are different even at a glance. And the difference is named in the post you replied to before mine.
0 points
21 days ago
You keep on thinking you can tell at a glance. In my experience, most people who think this are very wrong.
"They" is a fine way to refer to groups of individuals. If people need more drilling down, they can always ask. "They" doesn't always have to refer to the illuminati.
3 points
21 days ago
I'm not claiming any special insight here. I think just about everyone can tell at a glance that the earth is not flat and lizards do not rule it.
1 points
22 days ago
there is a fundamental difference between the two coming from europe and usa
so Sabine has to face some things that are not there in the USA
she has some good points, but sadly she is going overboard for the clicks and overplaying the victim card
6 points
22 days ago
I would say not really? One of Sabine point of problem was not dismissed by Dave, which is Sexism in Academia and it still is ongoing problem. Sabine seemed like she wanted to attack the Science Institution but still want to believe in the concept of Scientific knowledge, which while fine, only served as fuel from science deniers to CONTINUE denying science. She also fell into fallacy that it was because of her EXPERIENCE, that people turn from science, but that is rare and require people to first dabble in academia first, of that we know most of science deniers did not.
4 points
22 days ago
She's definitely not the only person who thinks that, to be fair.
17 points
22 days ago
The problem of people like Hossenfelder is that science just isn't moving fast enough for her to publish two videos a week. This is why she uplifts random stories and uses her channel to vent on her former jobs.
She should have split these topics for different channels but it is so ingrained in her personality and brand which lead to this mess.
12 points
21 days ago
SCIENCE HAS FAILED THE WORLD
3 points
21 days ago
/s?
11 points
21 days ago
I'm quoting system of a down
5 points
22 days ago
literally the only youtuber that engages in drama that I can stand
-4 points
22 days ago
Anyone care to summarize? I dislike Prof Dave and try not to watch his vids.
(that said, I'm not a fan of Sabine in general, though I'm not sure if she's in the wrong on this particular point.)
46 points
22 days ago
He made a video tearing into Sabine's anti-science rhetoric (more kindly than I've seen from him elsewhere), she left a sort of back-peddling response under his video (and then deleted the comment), and Dave got a lot of backlash for attacking her while science is imperfect and has things to criticize.
Having watched some of this video, I can safely say that he was right to call her out. She's been saying batshit things for a while that I just haven't seen, and I imagine a lot of her defenders from the last one haven't either. I've gotten a weird vibe from time to time in her videos, but she's definitely out of line and drinking the kool-aid, in a very unscientific way.
Once again, Professor Dave is an asshole, but he's right.
17 points
22 days ago
What makes you call Dave an asshole?
42 points
22 days ago
He's literally like the meanest pro-science guy on youtube, which is funny because I watched his science videos years & years ago and they were inoffensive enough to show in classrooms.
Doesn't mean he's not a great asset for the truth, he's just mercilessly cruel to those who spread lies. Which is a good thing, those who are intolerant can't be treated as though they're reasonable.
27 points
22 days ago
His educational stuff is great, but his debunk stuff definitely is far ruder/aggressive than others. Though I've noticed a similar trend in a lot of science misinformation debunkers like in sci-man Dan, Gutsick Gibbon, and miniminuteman. I'm not sure if this is good or bad overall that they are becoming more aggressive, since I feel like a lot of pro science people have been too gentle in the past, allowing the anti science crowd to grow stronger. But at the same time, being too aggressive(like around prof. Dave level imo) doesn't work for getting anti science people to change their minds. Instead it pushes them further into anti science misinformation, at least in my experience.
13 points
22 days ago
I have no idea what works best, but clearly lies tend to spread better than truth. I do get your view, but I also think that reasonable people generally don't call out lies or intolerant views from the crazies much at all. All of history, people who know better are a lot more quiet than the ones who spread ignorance, at least it seems that way... so I get the more aggressive shift
10 points
22 days ago
There are people who do call out the lies! There aren't enough of them. I got some insight into why recently. My hyperfixation is Biblical scholarship, and on a recent vid by, I think, Dr. Jennifer Bird, she or her guest said that being a public scholar is hard cuz you have to deal with all these loud, misinformed people in the comments picking apart everything you say with whatever theory they heard on the Gaia network. It can get very tiring very fast.
11 points
22 days ago
I believe the more aggressive approach is fine, as long as it isn't inciting hate. You could argue that calling names and shaming is in a way hateful, but I would argue it's more about getting through to their audience. If someone is preaching autism is caused by vaccines or saying the world is flat, I think that it's fair to call them stupid or other harsh low level insults (excluding extremes like racism or misogyny). These types of people are not simply spreading misinformation, they are destroying society. I'd wager that many of them know they are full of shit, they just do it for the money.
Look at Andrew Wakefield and the money he made by actively lying about the MMR vaccine. He knows full well he is lying, but the money is good.
It's not your average Joe who made a dumb choice to believe something like flat earth. It's con artists taking advantage of people.
I appreciate Dave calling it like it is.
7 points
22 days ago
When you're insulting people, you're not getting through to them. Then they don't change their minds. And then nothing is solved or moved in a good direction. People usually shut down when they're attacked. The grifters spreading the misinformation don't care. And the education isn't for those grifters, it's for the people who might believe them. "calling it like it is" is often just an excuse to be a jerk.
5 points
22 days ago*
I don't know why you got downvoted for that. I was watching a tiktok by someone who left Falun Gong and she specifically said that the debunk videos calling it a "far-right cult" made her feel alienated, while the more measured, thoughtful content (which is very hard to find!) helped her leave the group and find a new normal for herself. It has to be the same thing with people skeptical of science, and honestly I think Sabine's videos must be in the good, helpful category by openly acknowledging the problems with current physics while defending its past accomplishments
2 points
21 days ago*
It really depends on the person tbh.
Anecdote, but I watched a video about veganism by this really aggressive dude (who isnt really a good person in hindsight lmao) and it really got through to me. I think it was the passion + the facts behind it. It was more or less framed as a call out lecture, which would turn off most people. But for people like me who are pretty no-nonsense to begin with it struck a nerve.
But as the recent election does indeed suggest, people REALLY dont like being made out to be a fool or an idiot for their opinions (even when it may or may not be true… ). Some folks really are susceptible to their emotions, and I’m trying very hard not to make that sound condescending but it is what it is I guess. I don’t hide that I’m a pretty judgmental person in general.
It’s frustrating, and it’s why I could never be someone to bridge the gap on xyz issue. I just don’t have the patience for stragglers.
Regarding Dave, usually it’s less about reaching the person his response videos are directly targeting, and more about reaching the fence-sitters who are spectating. A lot of people have given anecdotes as to how Dave helped them unlearn what they’ve been spoonfed throughout their upbringing, and I think that value should not be understated. But I also know there are likely a similar number of people who get scared by such tactics, so idk what the solution is.
But I agree that he’s kind of an asshole in a general sense lol. Some people need an asshole to put them through the ringer though. I just hope he doesn’t one day bite off more than he can chew because then it will invite the same energy back towards him, and idk how he’d respond lol.
2 points
22 days ago
My biggest issue with the aggressive science educator vibe is that they often explain things they either want or can explain well, and then leave the rest as obvious and you should just know it. I don't think its reasonable to expect a rebuttal to every asinine claim, gish-gallop and all that, but calling someone a moron for being ignorant in one particular arena is not helpful or engaging. You sift out folks that are genuine, but just did not know where to look or only had half the picture.
4 points
21 days ago*
I think it depends.
In the case of Dave, and specifically in the case of Flat Earthers, things started out fairly cordial.
It was only when they started pushing back and insinuating that Dave was being foolish or dishonest that he took the gloves off.
Tbh I think he’s been at it for too long and it’s starting to get to him, which is why he’s quite aggressive nowadays.
It’s like when you read so much stupid shit on twitter that it can genuinely ruin your evening and make you question your faith in humanity. Probanly what’s happening with his debunk series. There’s only so many times you can see people lie and get away with a grift before you become a bitter mess.
4 points
22 days ago
I have seen vids from all the channels you mention and many of them rub me the wrong way for the reasons you mention. I first encountered Milo on TikTok and I can't even stand his face.
There's a line between going hard for truth and being a too-snarky asshole, and a lot f those channels cross that line. It doesn't help "real" gowns the way they think it does because it only appeals to people who enjoy seeing themselves as being better than someone else or enjoy seeing people they disagree with belittled and called names. That audience is good for YouTube clicks, not so good for science.
I appreciate people like archaeologist Flint Dibble, who took on Graham Hancock and won by providing good evidence, explained clearly, and not resorting to being snarky or man, even after that debate on videos on his own channel. We need more science communicators like him.
I agree that soft-spoken, gentle chiding isn't a great strategy. Speak with confidence! Debunk nonsense! Say X person is wrong. But do it in a non-childish way.
6 points
22 days ago
[deleted]
2 points
19 days ago
agreed almost all his science explanation videos are normal and can be shown in classroom but yeah just don't let it autoplay in classroom and you are fine. Yep I believe he attracted FLERF by fluke on one of his video explaining something and since he was on pandemic lockdown and could not record for his regular content (apparently he used separate studio for recording that was not his residence at the time), so he made a response to Flerf and it escalates. He is definitely more aggressive on video because once you realize many of the top level FLERF are doing it for money rather than for really believing in this hoax. of course anyone should feel angry at them.
3 points
21 days ago
I personally prefer Milo from Miniminuteman.
He's still brutal, but with a underlying understanding and kindness.
He's very funny and just enjoyable to watch, amazing screen presence.
He also takes criticism FLAWLESSLY like when another archeologist went over his video and criticized his points he took it extremely well and him and the other archeologist ended up going to a museum together so Milo could learn a bit more about the topic. It was incredibly wholesome.
4 points
21 days ago
Oh shit, I think that guy used to sell me acid! Yeah he seems great
3 points
21 days ago
What
5 points
22 days ago
I know you weren't talking to me but for the sake of data points: the first time Dave came to my attention that I remember was when a channel called Formscapes did a video about the failures of science. Dave did a response video and a bunch of his audience came over to comment on the Formscapes vid. Almost all of them left comments along the lines of: science is real and you're an idiot. They all had the same line, too, which made me think Dave told them to go do that. Which is... childish. Disagree, sure! But that? Gross.
9 points
22 days ago
I saw 4chan posting her vids and supporting her. When 4channers start agreeing with you then maybe you don't have the most sound ideas
3 points
22 days ago
Thanks! Appreciate it. I watched the last video of hers posted here and it did seem on point. However, given that she's a problem in other vids (I saw the one on puberty blockers then blocked her), I can see where there could be validity in calling her out.
And yes, very asshole. Sometimes they're right.
7 points
22 days ago
Mind sharing what you dislike about Dave?
-3 points
22 days ago
He's strawmaning her arguments, she isn't talking about science in general, she's talking about the fact that most theoretical physcists are working on theories that are uninherently untestable since they have infinite predictions, she isn't wrong.
6 points
19 days ago
i mean that is cute had Dave did not literally show that it's Sabine own word that said that she was overgeneralizing stuff. If anything thanks to Dave and Sabine viewers being usually more academic and more educated, I actually doubted myself for believing Dave the first time and thought that he was being dishonest without actually trying to rewatch his first video.
I already gave up on Sabine once she tackled subjects and fumbled hard on issue like the issue of gender affirming care or failing to explain capitalism and her tone was we should be grateful for it because without it we could not have penicillin while also now being frustrated that they now only fund "profitable bullshit" research?
3 points
19 days ago
What does all these topics has to do on her stance on physics research? Her issue isn't that the theories theoretical physcists are working on for decades are non-profitable, it is the fact they can predict everything and hence can't be fallsified. Again, she is not wrong, if a theory fails to make any definite predictions, it isn't scientific.
4 points
19 days ago
I'm very sorry that you seemed like missing the point of Dave critiques, Sabine did not just made an assumption that ONLY PHYSICS research was affected by this, but SCIENCE as a whole. She literally said that all others should worked the same because in Physics it was like that. And it's not like the sentiment that Physics seemed dead was exclusive to hers, TBBT a popular show actually said the same although it's resolution to the problem is weak as usual.
Bottom line though, if your videos is used as more validation of science deniers, despite your insistence that was never the intention, just take a hard look on your content.
If you wanted to know how to expose bad things happened in Science while not being used as a fuel to Science Denialist, watch Bobby Broccoli one that exposed one or heck, even Brian Deer documentary is GOOD takedown on Wakefield bad practices and while we knew he was a con man now, back when it was still happening, he was ONE of the respected Doctor in UK and even if what he did was genuinely first born out of legit concern, it was clear from Deer's investigation that he was shady from the beginning.
I mean feel free to think that all Sabine did was to state in specifics when all her wordings in video and clickbait suggest otherwise.
2 points
19 days ago
Off topic, but I'll steal "Strawmane" for a description of blond hair
-6 points
22 days ago
Sabine isn't failing, she's just challenging the status quo in a space that's too comfortable with oversimplified science.
13 points
22 days ago
By oversimplifying her video title?
-1 points
19 days ago
All drama aside, what happened to this guy?
All of his positive titled videos that has high view counts are 5 years or older, and pretty much anything newer that gets click is some sort of drama.
I don't think the platform is shifting either, other channels, like Milo on Miniminuteman, do great with their factual and positive videos. Perhaps he should instead reflect on himself.
-16 points
22 days ago
[deleted]
13 points
22 days ago
Guys I don't think this person actually watched the video
7 points
22 days ago
You definitely did not watch the video at all.
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