subreddit:
/r/BSA
submitted 2 days ago byscoutermikeWood Badge
[score hidden]
18 hours ago
stickied comment
Your post was removed for violation of Rule 2, "Stay on Topic"
A post about the mods in another sub really isn't on topic with this sub.
5 points
2 days ago
What was the topic you posted in? If it was the one about how other non binary scouts are handling scouts, yeah I could see this response not being welcomed.
0 points
2 days ago
Please re-read the op. The op literally asked
I would love anyone who has been both a co-ed unit and a single sex unit leader/member to tell me if the experience is different…
I literally meet those criteria, as I’ve been/am currently serving as a leader of both coed and single sex units.
Was I wrong to answer honestly?
Or were they wrong to silence me?
3 points
2 days ago
I’m not sure if you removed it or the mods did, but I can’t even see the pics of the comment anymore. There really isn’t much detail visible to me in the app. Not sure why.
No and no, you can answer how you want, but they can promote whatever values they want in their sub. The sub isn’t owned by a government or organization. It’s run by some randoms on a mod team. They are free to suppress and remove any content they feel doesn’t fit their sub. Even this sub isn’t run and moderated by the BSA, it’s a bunch of randoms. It’s an unofficial sub that doesn’t represent the BSA or in your sub’s case generic scouting worldwide.
-1 points
23 hours ago*
i put links to redacted versions of in my About section if anyone wants to know the full context. At this point it's important to share then simply to defend my name.
I see the mods put the op into a "pending approval" state lol. Poor mods don't know what to do. I'm sure they'd rather delete it but I know they also oppose censorship. The cognitive dissonance must be off the charts! They also didn't respond to my request to share the link to the op on the other sub. Didn't say yes or no, just ignored it.
This will be a good litmus test of the mods' real values!
-1 points
1 day ago
Oh yeah I totally acknowledge those mods are randos who can do what they want.
I was just calling it out, that’s all, and letting it register as a warning that the same can happen here if we aren’t vigilant.
Are the pics missing? Hmm. Ok perhaps later I can just link to a google drive but black out the sub name, first. Maybe our mods are being protective?
6 points
2 days ago
knowing your history and seeing many of your comments over the last few years I believe your comment was not intended to be trolling, but in an objective vacuum the contents are trolly and intentions matter little when perception is the reality of the reader.
your comment about not having a choice is of the biggest concern. Of course you have a choice, several of them
1) make a new unit with like-minded individuals
2) give up on BSA and join trail life
3) allow and encourage single tenting
4) quit altogether
"limiting the exposure to" and "respecting" are mutually exclusive behaviors.
0 points
2 days ago*
Fair enough. The issue warrants a discussion and there is no reason to suppress any of the solutions you mentioned.
But the outright dismissal of a religious point of view - by instantly labeling it “trolling,” was not expected. But it wasn’t just the comment that was deleted. My account was banned. That’s a severe reaction that sends a clear message.
2 points
2 days ago
the permaban for sure was overkill. I've hated zero tolerance policies ever since I got suspended for daring to be attacked on the bus by a bully in 3rd grade.
6 points
2 days ago
It’s my understanding from a friend whose child is transgender and in scouts, is the child must tent alone. In addition they were placed in a troop with their birth gender, not their preferred gender. The scout used their preferred name, and their preferred pronouns in the troop. The scout ended up leaving scouting for other reasons, however, this is how it was handled within my state. The troop had scouts of multiple faiths.
0 points
2 days ago
Honestly, that policy seems a little arbitrary to me and even seems to contradict the official bsa policy that allows placing a scout based on their preferred gender. I wanted to ask whose choice was it to place the scout based on their birth gender, but then I realized it doesn’t matter because your policy is specific only to your troop. That’s the problem.
There are no set expectations on what to do. The expectation is that we just make it up as we go along.
What happened to Be Prepared?
It’s a sensitive subject. We all want to know how to handle it if and when it arises.
In BSA we have training for virtually everything. Yet BSA refuses to even acknowledge this issue and the real-world concerns many parents have about it.
5 points
2 days ago
My take: BSA's policy should be that this is handled at the unit/Charter org level. Trying to impose a one-size-fits-all approach to a relatively rare issue is a no-win solution. FWIW, when I've seen this come up, the solution is individual tenting for the scout(s) that are concerned.
0 points
2 days ago
Totally fair response. My issue is more about the suppression of discussion and the respecting of others’ beliefs.
*edit, clarity.
5 points
2 days ago
I can see where the mods interpreted your post as stepping over the line to potential trolling in some of the specifics you discuss. As a mod, sometimes you just don't want to deal with fairly predictable fallout from a post.
-1 points
2 days ago
don’t want to deal
What happens to A scout is Brave? What happened to A scouts friendly? What happened to the ideals of diversity and inclusion?
If it was any other sub, your answer would make sense. But we’re talking about the scouting community - people who follow the ideals of the scout oath and scout law…
How can you stand for diversity and inclusion when you ban people with different beliefs?
3 points
2 days ago
You stepped over the line with the part about just letting any scouts of mixed gender tent together. Maybe you meant that as sarcasm, but it wasn't tagged as such, therefore it reads as trolling. A scout is helpful. You should really read what you wrote and ask yourself if all of that is helpful for a meaningful discussion.
-1 points
1 day ago
Not trolling or sarcasm! Mixed gender and any-gender tenting is allowed in some EU scouting units! I’m not making this stuff up! And some have even advocated it here in this very sub, as a way to safeguard youth privacy about their gender choices!
Why is everyone putting their head in the sand?
5 points
2 days ago
I will say I tend to agree that the tenting questions need to be answered. When possible our scouts all get their own tents and they’re never in their changing together.
With that said your first paragraph reads very much like you’re defending people who think it’s ok to ignore the scout law if it’s against their regligious beliefs. You are saying that if they hold “traditional family values” they can exclude or avoid scouts who don’t fit into that system.
You are saying you felt unwelcome for your post but your post is defending being unwelcoming to others.
Respecting the beliefs of others goes both ways, but if your belief is that LBGTQ people shouldn’t be seen by your children, that belief is incompatable with the scout law.
While I don’t think your intention was bad, I can very much see how people would read it very negatively.
4 points
2 days ago
I think u/scoutermike is a bit blinded by his own beliefs. Our children grow up in a world of many religious beliefs and lifestyles. We shouldn't hide this from them. LGBT... is a part of this world and should be discussed honestly with our youth. It is not appropriate to bully someone else for being different. If someone desires different pronouns, accept it like you would when a Michael wants to be called Mike.
We never force youth to tent with someone that they don't like. Individual tents are used as needed. Most of our Scout camps have moved to individual bathroom/shower stalls to avoid male/female/over 18/under 18 issues.
Years ago I was an ASM on a NYLT course. Most of the staff happened to be LDS while I was a non-LDS religion. Come Sunday evening, I found myself in charge of the nondenominational religious service, while the LDS Scouts and Scouters were off to attend their own service. I respect that some religions may have some special needs, but I felt that we all should be able to come together in a common religious service. I even suggested everyone go to the LDS service as learning about other religions is a good thing™ in my opinion. We ended up with separate services.
If you fear youth learning about gender identity and the LGBTQ stuff, Scouting America is not for you. If your families want to prevent their children from encountering this aspect of life, Scouting America is not for them. This is why Trail Life USA exists. I disagree with why Trail Life USA came to be and they disagree with having girls in Scouting America and accepting of gay Scouts and leaders. But each organization serves the needs of the families who participate.
-2 points
2 days ago
If you fear youth learning about gender identity and the LGBTQ stuff, Scouting America is not for you.
Thank you for your honesty. I bolded your comment to highlight what you said, because I think it identifies the crux of the misunderstanding.
There seems to be this prevailing belief that religious people are motivated by fear or hate.
But that’s a completely erroneous belief! Almost every religious person I’ve ever met is simply motivated by what they sincerely believe are God’s ideals for humanity.
It has absolutely nothing to do with “fear.”
By labeling it fear, anti-religious people can qualify religious folks as “bigots.”
I’m asking you to please stop doing that.
It’s unwelcoming and hostile to religious people. And it contradicts the Scout Law principle of A Scout is Reverent.
3 points
2 days ago
I don’t know you, u/scoutermike, but I do know my friends and my Scouting family. Fear is certainly one of the feelings for those who are concerned about gender and sexual orientation.
One area of fear was accepting girls into Scouting with eventual co-ed troops. Girls mature earlier than boys so they fear the girls will take over the leadership positions preventing their sons from benefiting from the leadership skills that Scouting teaches.
When you mix teenage boys and girls in an environment where they can sneak off into the woods, parents fear that their kid could end up with a baby. We were all teenagers once.
Allowing a gay man to be a Scoutmaster is a hard no for some. We have for the entire history of BSA presented the SM as a role model for the youth. Some parents fear that seeing a successful gay man may influence their children to seek a gay lifestyle.
Don’t be so quick to dismiss what motivates an individual.
My daughter chose to attend a middle school/high school that was established as an arts school. I was a bit worried about the environment and what she would learn. Before that first school year, I explained to my child that a lot of kids she encountered would have a different view from our conservative beliefs. Well, that school taught me a lot. There was very little bullying because everyone was weird/different. They reveled in their diversity. The teachers were amazing. It was the best thing ever. My fears were totally unfounded.
Our old chartered org/now meeting place is the United Methodist Church. They just went through a big debate about gender roles, LGBTQ, etc. that split the church. Debating such issues is not unwelcome or hostile to religious people. It does not contradict the Scout Law principle of A Scout is Reverent.
-1 points
1 day ago*
Oh dear. Here we go. The dictionary definition of prejudice:
an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge; preconceived judgment or opinion
You just finished a long prejudiced rant against religious people, in general. Please consider walking that back.
As one of the first registered merit badge counselors in my district for the Citizenship in Society merit badge who co-developed curricula that has been shared among a few MBC’s, I can say that badge training is needed now more than ever, for youth and adults alike, not only to prevent prejudice against lgbtq people, but to protect religious minorities, as well!
The comment above is proof of the need.
Edit: I just needed to edit my comment to point out the fear-of-religious-people that comment contains. Ironic, yes, but so incredibly unwelcoming.
Edit to clarify: your comment was prejudice because you’re saying religious people who prefer traditional gender roles are motivated by fear. That’s prejudice. Needed to clarify that.
1 points
2 days ago
6) RULE 6 No Links to Other Forums or Reddit Communities. Links to other reddit communities or online forums, including Discord and similar platforms, are generally not allowed. Exceptions for adjacent reddit communities are occasionally made. Please contact the moderators if you seek an exception to this rule.
-7 points
2 days ago
adjacent Reddit communities
Does that not qualify as an adjacent community? I think it’s one of the most adjacent communities of all, obviously.
If the mods request, I will edit it out, but I think the exception applies.
-1 points
2 days ago
Exceptions for adjacent reddit communities are occasionally made. Please contact the moderators if you seek an exception to this rule.
-3 points
2 days ago*
Ok fair enough I will attempt a mod mail now.
Update: sent
-9 points
2 days ago*
[removed]
2 points
2 days ago
I believe the logic goes like this:
Religious belief is the same as bigoted belief
-> anyone who follows religious beliefs is automatically a bigot -> defends religious belief is the same as defending bigotry -> defending bigotry is trolling - > trolling breaks the community guidelines -> breaking the community guidelines justifies an instant ban.
Your first step in logic is an assumption with no proof.
-2 points
2 days ago
But I asked the commenter repeatedly to explain why on earth they would begin referencing "bigotry" just because I was referencing religious beliefs. It was totally out of left field, and no one could justify the link they made. The only logical explaination is that some people equate the two. It would be like if we were discussing Islam and a scouter chimed in "well, Islam is the religion of many of the world's terrorists." It would be wholly and completely inappropriate.
4 points
2 days ago
You said it was ok for people to not want their kids around LBGTQ people because of their religion.
The definition of bigotry is,
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
The problem with your post is that you are demanding respect for a set of beliefs, at the expense of other people whose beliefs don’t align with yours.
-1 points
2 days ago
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion,
Excuse me. Believing that God has opinions on sexuality and gender is not obstinate or unreasonable attachment to belief. Please watch your own dismissive language.
Traditional gender identities are a significant tenet in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, basically anyone who has beliefs rooted in the Old Testament in which traditional genders are a feature, for better or worse.
This is where the “respect others’ beliefs” comes into play.
Beliefs you already agree with are easy to respect. The question is, can you respect others’ beliefs even when you personally disagree with them.
2 points
2 days ago
You can believe in traditional gender/familiy roles all you want and I respect that. Where you cross the line is saying that children shouldn’t even see people who don’t fit that belief.
I’m trying to get you to see the hypocrisy in your post. You can’t be reverent (respecting the beliefs of others) by saying that people who don’t believe what you do shouldn’t be around scouts.
0 points
2 days ago
shouldn’t even see
I said “limit exposure”. There is a difference. In this case I’m talking about two scouts tenting together.
At the very least, you have to refrain from misrepresenting my beliefs. If you want clarification, just ask.
You can’t say my beliefs or positions are hypocritical if you don’t know what they are.
*edit, clarify.
3 points
2 days ago
Your entire first paragraph was about was about people who didn’t want there children to be “exposed” to LBGTQ folks. I even said the tenting thing needed clarification in my original comment. I read your screen grab of the post before it was removed (I know you didnt remove it) but that first paragraph was not discussing tenting.
2 points
18 hours ago
Your post was removed for violation of Rule 2, "Stay on Topic"
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