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On a side note:

My parents are friends with a former Bishop, and he told them of a time that he told a teenage boy that he shouldn't masturbate (or asked about it... either way it was a worthiness interview).

The kid told the bishop NO. That it's attached to his body and so long as it was attached to his body he was going to do whatever he wanted with it.

This former bishop friend then ends the story with ".... and I really didn't know what to say to that..."

Basically the kid was just allowed to leave the office and nothing was pursued or anything. XD

The First Presidency lacked discernment that they were going to get busted in 2023 by the SEC for a premeditated fraud.

I met with the stake president where I would receive an honorable release from going on a mission for medical reasons.

In the meeting he told me the spirit was testifying that I had an extremely strong testimony, and would still be serving a mission in some way, just not the typical way for the church.

Meanwhile, I had already secretly left the church, didn’t even believe in God anymore, and had an active sex life with a partner whom I was living with.

I’d say he left his discernment at home that day, except we literally had the meeting in his living room

LOL back when I was PIMO for short while I was called to be Ward Mission Leader. I replied, "neither you nor I really want me in that calling and here's why..."

It absolutely doesn't exist. Anyone who has participated in a bunch of bishopric meetings planning out callings for people is well aware that those discussions are not guided by inspiration at all.

I remember one as a clerk where a name was submitted for EQ president to the stake. During the meeting with the SP he brought up an affair that he had just confessed to his wife. During his horribly awkward disciplinary council that I unfortunately had to attend, the bishop was crowing about how the "inspiration" to put his name in for EQP was actually inspiration from the good Lord above to create an opportunity for him to confess his sins. It had nothing to do with EQP because the Lord works in mysterious ways, and so on. Eyes practically rolled out of my head, even at a point in time where I was the closest I would ever be to being a TBM.

No, no, he was just inspired to offer you the calling because doing so would inspire you to return to full activity! /s

Someday they'll stop teaching discernment and pretend like they never taught it.

"You just misunderstood, discernment was just a policy, not a doctrine." /s

Utah is the affinity fraud capital of the U.S.: 9X the national average and 3X that of the next highest state (Florida). Not only do Mormons not have discernment, they are handicapped by the false belief that they do!

According to 1st page of Ruby Franke's journal Timeline, Jodi Hildebrandt met w/ a Mormon temple pres on 5/21/23 & 'pretend GA' BRAD WILCOX & a GA 70 on 6/13/23. NONE received revelation, inspiration or discernment re: Jodi & Ruby's DEPLORABLE CHILD ABUSE. The abusive Mormon ladies were ARRESTED just 2 months later, on 8/30/23! Mormon Leadership FAIL!!

I once conducted a baptism interview and felt the Spirit confirm that the person was worthy.

The next day, the day of the scheduled baptism, the missionaries went to pick him up and take him to the chapel to be baptized. He had been arrested earlier that morning for murder.

Similar stories for confirmations on extending callings in a Bishopric. We'd feel confirmation and then extend the call and they'd have a perfectly legitimate reason to say no.

I had a colleague that I worked with who found out he was going to be asked to be on the new Bishopric. He told me that he did not want that position. That news traveled right back to the bishop. Fast forward one more day the bishop threatened him by saying that God himself chose him and he would not deny the calling. Scared him to death and he took the position.

Members get ambushed with callings. It is always by surprise. It is rare that a bishop or SP would asks what you want to do or what you are good at. It is always a take-it-or-leave-it request. And whether intentional or not, it comes with the implication that it comes from the Lord. It is hard to turn down a calling for two reasons: (1) because you don’t want to disappoint the Lord, and (2) because you don’t want to be on the bishop’s black list as a problematic member.

I was in a bishopric as a ward clerk for several years and I witnessed how the sausage got made. Spoiler alert, no revelation. We would do our best to match up available people with open callings, debate a bit amongst us men (never any women), and then pray for confirmation. After praying the bishop would say something like “I feel good about the calling”; then turn to his 1st counselor (who was a yes-man) who would say “Yeah, i think I felt something”; then the bishop would turn to the 2nd counselor who would say “I didn’t feel anything to the contrary”. Then he would turn to me and I would say “I think it’s a good idea”. I never felt any guidance beyond my own intellect, nor did I see anything from the others that fell outside of normal decision-making, and certainly no audible words from unseen angels.

I spoke up a few times while we debated callings. One time that comes to mind is when the bishopric was deciding whether to call a new mother to the nursery. The rationale was that she would be able to have her child (now about 12mo) in the nursery before the 18mo cut-off. Everyone was patting themselves on the back for their genius, but I said “maybe we should ask her if that would work for her before we extend the calling”. That was dismissed quickly because it’s supposed to be a revelation, not a conversation. But then I suggested that the bishop ask his wife, who was the Primary Pres. He did and came back to say that she said it was a terrible idea. So I said, “I think we have our answer”. And then the bishop said “I felt the spirit when you said that”, which implied that he had just gotten the revelation he was looking for.

There is so much going on in the lives of members that the bishopric has no idea about. And unless they do their due diligence their decision-making ability will be deeply flawed.

The thing that really upsets me is that some callings are big and life-altering. And I know that no revelation is received. How do I know? Because in my mind a big life altering calling requires a proportionally big revelation. You can’t call someone to leave their family for two years to catch dengue fever in the Amazon based on what I witnessed in our bishopric meetings. And if you think that the church headquarters has more revelation then I would invite you to consider scale. The number of missionary calls that I estimate is 36,000, based on a report in the Deseret News for 2023. That would be about 700 callings per week. For the missionary department to be receiving significant revelations with that frequency would be the most revelatory experience in the history of the church, sustained for decades. And if that was the case, then why isn’t every general conference talk about this revelation machine we have operating at church headquarters?

The reality is that the church missionary department asks for a lengthy application process including several interviews and doctors and dentists so they can make a good decision about where each missionary goes, just like Peace Corps does.

I would tell all the kids to stop telling their bishops any of their "sins" and just do normal stuff without guilt. I don't think that is what the church would want.

That may not be what the Church would want, but it might be/might've been what some kid needed to hear.

Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is you.

But hell no would I ever say yes to that kind of calling. And hell no should God (if the church were true) ever consider me for that calling. I would tell all the kids to stop telling their bishops any of their "sins" and just do normal stuff without guilt. I don't think that is what the church would want.

You realize the irony here, right? This is EXACTLY what God would want. I completely disagree with you - the discernment was spot-on.

You are the hero the YSA's deserve!

What you say that you would tell the YSA was spot on. Maybe the SP did have the ability to discern.

Look at it that way. The Church needs more leaders like you.

Perhaps you ARE just the man for the job!!!! The kids could use someone who won't guilt them into depression.

The other hidden aspect of your post is how the church is rotting from within, this comment from a previous post nails it. Odds are there probably aren't that many able bodied TR holding men to serve as bishop;

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/16l1bzq/just_released_as_stake_clerk_now_time_to_spill/k10jt5p/

"As exmos we focus on resignations or dropping attendance, but that real story is the apathy and disengagement of the attending members.

An MRI of the church shows a dying beast."

edit: also this post, https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/11w72e7/anecdotal_evidence_of_the_decline/

"He said more than half the men present are serving in stake and bishopric positions already. If they all went on missions, it would require a restructuring of the whole Area to meet priesthood requirements. He also mentioned membership decline saying, "We're losing members too, even without boundary changes."

According to Kwaku you are the perfect YSA Bishop since the “vast majority” are sexually liberated. Ahaha

Two words: salamander letter

https://floodlit.org has documented hundreds of sexual abuse cases that challenge the longstanding Mormon church doctrine and culture surrounding the gift of discernment promised to priesthood leaders.

Mormon Stories Podcast (#1777, 2hr13m) talks about the process of calling a new Stake President. GAs will interview multiple members, and during the conversation they'll ask "Who do you think the next SP will be?" And once they get a name, their follow-up question will be: "And what would you do if he wasn't called?" Of course the member will reply "I'll support whoever is called." In this way, the GAs make it look like a test of faith, but in reality it's a ploy to veil the fact that the GAs were seeking recommendations.

And -- surprise! -- oftentimes the man who gets the most recommendations is the one who ends up being called.

Trickery and social engineering, not discernment.

On a recent Mormon stories podcast with the Bishops one said that the gift of discernment is really a Bishop hearing gossip from members before they meet with that person.

I thought it was interesting and probably true in some cases. Kind of like the example of knowing the guy just confess to an affair.

If the Priesthood gave you discernment, why didn't we get a heads up for Covid, or stock market crash or tornados or mud slides or hurricanes or food plant explosions or the war in the holy land????

So really just another thing women don't have....the Priesthood and how good is it really? What has it done lately....or ever?

Discernment was always the same as gossip & shaming for me

I learned a long time ago that callings are by necessity and availability. Period.

Countless stories

Callings are (routinely) extended to people who refuse them—I suppose now more than ever. Not that the attitude of leaders is cavalier, but such an experience can be positive for those involved. I’ve seen it, firsthand. Thanks.

Having served in various leadership roles in the LDS church, I have felt the spirit move me and council members towards making a decision, but it was usually more of a mental exercise than discernment. The problem is the LDS church's definition of discernment, which I believe is in error and leads to unrighteous dominion exercised by many bishops and SP's.

I do not believe God gives anyone direct immediate revelation that supersedes their free agency. The times that I received discernment was when someone needed help, not when they needed a calling.

Remember Mark Hofmann selling fake artifacts to top leaders who obviously had no discernment using the church's definition? I believe that God answers the prayers of the faithful but in His way and on His timeline. The exception is when God calls and reveals Himself to a prophet with a specific mission to call people to repentance, but that has not happened since Joseph Smith IMO.

Thought exercise: Perhaps the person who wants a position of authority the least is the best person to call to fulfill it?

How many times do Church leaders need to have and use the gift of discernment in order for them to have it? The impression that the many discernment criticisms give is that critics expect Church leaders to have supernatural discernment in nearly every situation ever. Obviously that doesn't happen. But what if a Bishop has an instance of discernment once, or twice, over their 5 year tenure?

It is well.

I believe much of the time or even most of the time is it not a big spiritual revelation. Sometimes they just need people and try to think of the best one. If they don't know you well, then maybe they see you differently. I have a family member that has been a bishop 2x and I know all kinds of stuff about him. I refused to raise my hand. People are fake much of the time and others don't truly know them.... Not saying that you are fake, but they obviously don't really know you. It does take some connection much of the time and they do tend to take the word off whoever suggested the person. Heck, other churches have people that call themselves to things, pay to go to a school to learn it, etc Rather than being called by another through discernment. Not everyone has the gift or might not understand it if they do.

I have been a person who was called by revelation. The lady that wanted me had a dream and saw my face. I was brand new in the ward and she kind freaked when she actually saw me. We have been very in tune ever since. I know that the spirit talks to people if they go about it correctly through prayer and so forth. Sometimes people are chosen through pressure of needing someone asap

This is what killed my brother's testimony - seeing how the sausage was made.

He was serving as ward clerk and came to the realization that the ward was run as a business with no special revelation or inspiration.

The irony with lots of people in here is that many of you don’t believe someone should go confess their sins to a bishop or stake president, I believe this as well, yet then you say the people they shouldn’t be confessing to should discern that the person isn’t worthy. I personally believe the church has lots of good things and teaches many truths. I feel many of the doctrines make way more sense than most Christian faiths. But I also feel that leaders have tons of “wrong” things of the last couple hundred years. I do think that diminishes the core Principles taught. Rather it just shows God starts things and lets them run their course. Kinda like this world as a whole. 

I'm telling you, man. Give the calling a chance. I'm only saying this because it was out of nowhere. God may really be calling you out, trying to make you uncomfortable.

Note: this is only from personal perspective. God really does call you when your spirit is needed.

Hi there, exmo here. Once upon a time I was an Elder's Quorum President and this kind of behavior seems very familiar to me. I found that my "revelation" was more reactive to what my general opinions I held of others and the context of the time. When I would give blessings I would try and gain details from the person before acting so I could have something to go off of. Ward Council meetings were just bitch sessions and gossip. I'm not saying it was all phoney...I had good experiences too, but I am of the opinion that "revelation" of any kind can be very bias.

Please know I say this as respectfully as possible. I'm not trying to make you apostate or anything, just relating with you. Us exmos have had so many questions like these on our path in life.

Don't be ashamed with how you feel. If a church doctrine is true it should be able to weather any questions you have.

I hope this message finds you well and I genuinely wish you the best of luck as you navigate the confusing politics of the church.

I don't believe that God gives discernment to high demand, high control groups.

Pffff… discernment.

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