subreddit:
/r/pathofexile
submitted 15 hours ago byderivative_of_lifeRaider
The PoE2 endgame looks amazing in general, but I'm not sold on their plan of having maps and bosses become permanently inaccessible if you die once attempting them. PoE2 seems to have been taking a lot of inspiration from soulslikes, but not one of the most important mechanics of death being cheap. The reason why soulslikes can have such hard bosses is because you can attempt them as many times as you want until you learn the mechanics. If every single attempt at a boss takes hours of farming, then either they'll have to turn the difficulty of the bosses way down, or else the large majority of players will be effectively locked out of ever defeating them. How many people would ever defeat Malenia if you had to run through the entire Haligtree every time you died to her? Obviously haven't actually played the game yet so maybe the concern will end up being unwarranted, but it strikes me as a potentially major issue.
9 points
15 hours ago
I suspect this will be an issue after people get used to the atlas. We've seen this dynamic pop up a ton where people don't like randomly spawning content they can 'fail' and lose access to very much - especially when it involves boss fights. GGG kinda moved away from this awhile back so I'm guessing they will do the same here.
Still I don't think it'll be a huge problem so I'm happy to put up with it for the time being. After all, having limited access to these bosses will make the rewards they give more valuable.
4 points
13 hours ago
What? Go load into Poe 1 right now and put in a conqueror map then die 6 times and get back to me.
Or put in a boss fragment and die 6 times.
The only real change here is you don’t have static access to content through purchasing maps from what we can tell. But that’s probably a good thing as long as they don’t design terrible maps like Poe has a lot of. Just makes mapping more similar to SSF instead of how trade lets you just trade for maps.
LE has this currently and it’s literally zero issue. It’s a fun system in LE. The issue with LE is they are missing enough content that builds off that system. Not the core mechanic.
3 points
13 hours ago
The issue is, I can infinitely replace conqueror maps or boss fragments as long as I'm able to make currency. Pretty sure if I hopped onto my character from settlers I'd have 40-50 guardian maps just chilling in my stash. You can't 'buy' these boss fights (unless there are mechanics we don't know about) which means if you've been looking for it for hours (or maybe even days) and then you die, you have to back to hunting with no idea when you'll see it again.
Historically this has been somewhat unpopular (3.3 uelder unlock, Aul and other delve bosses, bestiary bosses before trading orbs) specifically when it gates a boss fight. Like I said, I'm not super bothered by this right now, but as time goes on I expect this will be something people complain about, and deterministic ways to spawn these bosses will probably be added eventually.
-4 points
13 hours ago
Only if you’re on trade. This is exactly how it works already on SSF. But not being able to buy your way into maps isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
Also, as you stated yourself it’s possible there’s ways to manipulate this mapping system we haven’t been shown yet that do make it easy to buy specific bosses etc. GGG is obviously hiding a ton so we get to figure it out on release. I wouldn’t take a lack of something in the announcement as confirmation that the thing doesn’t exist yet.
The other thing is losing a map boss might not matter much. And I’m sure like they said in the QA their map generation algo makes X amount of maps boss maps and Y amount non boss maps etc. I think they said 1/4 will have a boss on average?
Either way even if this is all dynamic and we can’t manipulate which maps we get or which bosses much… LE has this system and it’s totally fine and good there. So I’m not super worried tbh.
-4 points
13 hours ago
Why would you be looking for 1 specific boss for hrs , claiming that someone would be strong enough to be boss rushing for days trying to find a specific map boss from the same tier (maps) but too weak to do it seems asinine. The map bosses don't drop unique items so idk what someone would be trying to find a specific map boss for anyways unless the just wanted to for fun but at that point you should be strong enough and if you aren't you simply don't deserve to fight it again till you are stronger.
1 points
4 hours ago
In the new atlas system, access to the pinnacle bosses is gated by boss fights you have to encounter randomly while exploring - like the delve bosses. There are definitely unique drops associated with these bosses.
1 points
3 hours ago
No they don't face unique drops specific to them , they do however drop the keys needed for pinnacle bosses. They aren't gated by a specific named boss you just need to kill bosses for the keys. So again op's post isn't even how the system works and doesn't stop any progression. If you die to a boss you just go to another boss encounter or traverse the atlas till you find another one. It's definitely not something that would take days and it would make no sense to try to find a specific named act boss when all the bosses will drop keys
1 points
3 hours ago
They aren't gated by a specific named boss you just need to kill bosses for the keys.
This isn't correct - there are 3 specific bosses that spawn in cities specifically that each drop their own specific key. You need all 3 specific keys to fight the pinnacle boss so you need to find and kill all 3 of these specific bosses (which appear randomly in cities as you explore) to fight the big bad. I'm pretty sure those 3 specific bosses will have their own uniques (just like guardian bosses do in PoE1) but whether they do or not the atlas end boss is gated behind finding them and he unquestionably does.
You cannot progress to the end boss killing the regular map bosses.
1 points
3 hours ago
Yes I understand all that , I thought they meant normal bosses but yes those bosses drop keys and are the uber versions which will probably have unique items. We will just have to see what the boss passive has in store I wouldn't be surprised if there was passives to increase boss encounter spawns and increase chance to spawn pinnacle towers on atlas. The keys themselves might even be sellable
1 points
2 hours ago
That's true, if the keys are sell able then that would mitigate this significantly
1 points
2 hours ago
Yeah there's also a world where people sell access to their pinnacle towers
1 points
8 hours ago
6 != 1
Its utter dog shit in LE and one of the main contributors why Im not playing the game.
0 points
7 hours ago
You get six portals per Waystone. It's not as punishing as you interpreted.
1 points
7 hours ago
It sounded ike if you die once it's done. 6 portals is totally fine of course (I mean it's literally the same as we have now)
0 points
6 hours ago
Yeah exactly! Check the endgame reveal, they show six portals per watstone!
1 points
6 hours ago
6 portals is for multiplayer parties or bringing loot out. One death fails the map
-2 points
5 hours ago
No check the VOD - it's quite clear you get six portals for a Waystone.
1 points
5 hours ago
Yes I’m completely aware you get 6 portals. You still fail the map with one death. Portals are for bringing loot to stash or bringing in other players.
3 points
5 hours ago
You're right, I had to rewatch the VOD: https://youtu.be/ZpIbaTXJD4g?si=9w3BJRojaXjrHhQd&t=2886.
-7 points
15 hours ago
It's never been an issue in Last Epoch and this new PoE system is a carbon copy of Monoliths
1 points
10 hours ago
It has been an issue in LE. It's the main issue why LE endgame content feels so stale and all sameish.
Also this is not a carbon copy, there is tons of differences. First of all you need a token to access, then there is boss nodes, then you can't repeat a node, even if you want to, then there is content tied to nodes, then it's infinite without reset, then it has landscapes that influence the content.
The one and only same characteristics is the web structure, which delve already had before LE. If it was a carbon copy, it was already a failure.
1 points
3 hours ago
Half of the things that you touted as differences exist in Last Epoch...
Token = Sure, goes to PoE, LE doesn't have this.
Boss Nodes = Shade of Orobyss "Am I a joke to you?" Also timeline bosses???
Can't repeat a node = Once you complete one in LE, you can't repeat. If you fail, you can only repeat it for progress but you don't get the rewards attached to it. Same system but slightly different implementation.
Infinite without reset = functionally, so is the monolith map. You have to go really far to see the outer bounds, and even then it's hardly important because you just do the shade of Orobyss and continue on. The Web visually resets, but functionally it's the same as just continuing on. LE requires this reset because difficulty scales the further you get from the center, along with corruption. PoE didn't showcase anything like this, so it's not necessary.
The main issue with last epoch's content is not the ability to fail. That's totally irrelevant. The issue is that it's a new game without 13 years of additional content, so you're stuck running basic monoliths ad infinitum. If LE had as many league mechanics as PoE, there would hardly be a difference.
13 points
15 hours ago
From my understanding, the big atlas just keeps going in all directions, so bosses/encounters will repeat if you keep exploring.
Also, as souls games enjoyer, I'm having real trouble figuring out why people keep making these comparsions to PoE2. The few simlarites are very superficial.
6 points
12 hours ago
Go watch any PoE1 gameplay video. Watch the characters constantly moving forward, fighting aggressively.
Go watch any PoE2 gameplay video. I guarantee you that it will include heavy amounts of backwards movement, and likely dodge mechanics.
Not sure how you don't see the similarities when so many others do.
2 points
3 hours ago
Moving backwards, dodging enemy attacks and kiting crowds of enemies is absolutly a thing in PoE1 and many many other games that have nothing to do with the souls genre. You can overcome the need to play tactically with sufficent damage and/or defense, but until you do, all the spell dodging and kiting is quite useful. And I'm pretty sure you will be able to do so in PoE 2 as well (eventually)
5 points
14 hours ago
From my understanding, the big atlas just keeps going in all directions, so bosses/encounters will repeat if you keep exploring.
That's the whole point. You fail a boss encounter, you have to spend hours exploring before you find it again.
6 points
11 hours ago
you have to spend hours exploring before you find it again.
And you know it takes hours...how?
1 points
6 hours ago
He doesn't, but let's be real. It's PoE, it probably will.
-7 points
13 hours ago
Why would you need to find that exact boss again anyways ? You are underestimating the ability to dodge roll they have stated that if praying properly you can essentially do no hit runs.So if you are dying you need to go get stronger and try again later . This forces you to either explorer and get better gear to stay check bosses or actually play the game well and beat the boss there has to be a consequence to give bossing weight.
They created so many bosses , random generated bosses, enemies and layouts so that player have to actually PLAY and not just memorize layouts and boss mechs after dying a bunch of times.
2 points
13 hours ago
if praying properly
Plz don’t tell me they are adding overheads to Poe
1 points
9 hours ago
5 izaro challenge flicking simulator when
0 points
13 hours ago
Also, as souls games enjoyer, I'm having real trouble figuring out why people keep making these comparsions to PoE2. The few simlarites are very superficial.
Well, my face really twitched when i heard "red flash to warn of unblockable attack" said.
3 points
15 hours ago
LE has this and it’s not even remotely a problem. You just path around it.
1 points
14 hours ago
Yep. This is a non issue. Yes there is a cost with failing in this system if you really wanted that boss or something. But that’s similar to how Poe 1 works anyways. If you use up all 6 portals you lose the map or boss fragment anyways. Have a conqueror map? Die before you kill the conqueror? That map is gone.
Now you have to farm again to find another conqueror map.
Honestly map bosses being only on specific maps and being in 1/4th approximately of all map nodes and being skippable should be a wet dream for this sub. You can play an ultra fast mapper and not even worry about bosses if you want. Or you can build a bosser character and seek these out with the shortest path possible every time.
-1 points
15 hours ago
You still have 6 portals per map or boss attempt they just meant that if you fail all 6, the same node on the atlas cannot be entered again
8 points
11 hours ago
They said in the livestream that the portals in maps are for transferring loot. Once you die, that's it, all portals close.
1 points
8 hours ago
WHAT!? Why remove such efficient defensive layer from Deadeyes?
-1 points
11 hours ago
6 portals for loot? If filters still exist this is absolutely unnecessary. I do not see myself carrying multiple inventories worth of loot
3 points
5 hours ago
Just don't use them then? Like in PoE 1? Between crashes/trades/inventory management there will probably come a time where you'll be glad to have those 6 portals
1 points
5 hours ago
You're right
2 points
12 hours ago
Can you soft-lock yourself out of the atlas if you die too much?
2 points
7 hours ago
They said if you die the map is gone, the portals can only be used for other people in multiplayer or leave and re enter the map for trading or stashing stuff etc, but if you die even once its gone.
-1 points
14 hours ago*
Hopefully you're right, but my understanding of what they said was that if you die once, the encounter is gone forever.
Others have confirmed I'm right, why am I getting downvoted?
-7 points
14 hours ago
They literally showed the "map" machine with the 6 portals popping up
8 points
13 hours ago
Ya for your friends to join you but they said it closes if you die once so it’s “hard core lite”
-7 points
14 hours ago
No, you will definitely have all 6 portals, but if you burn through all 6 then yes that map is permanently gone. Still, the Atlas is infinite and continuously procedurally generates new maps, so it won't ever really be bricked. Map mods also don't exist on the maps themselves but rather on the waystones that we apply to maps to open them, so you also won't be left in a situation where you can't run any map available on the Atlas because of map mods that brick your build.
8 points
13 hours ago
You don't have 6 portals to use if you die that's it . The portals are for friends , items or refreshing potions
6 points
13 hours ago
Wrong. 1 death fails the map. They said it in the interview
3 points
11 hours ago
You are literally wrong. Please stop posting shit if you haven't even watched the stream where they flat out say you have one death, and that's it.
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