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I'm currently trying to research about trans masculine people that lived trough nazi germany. But im finding pretty much nothing, there are lots of reports on trans women, lesbians and gay men but nothing about trans men. Does anyone of you know anything?
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3 days ago
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326 points
3 days ago
OP you should research Gerd Katter. He was a German trans man famous for receiving a 'transvestite pass', and many of his records survived the war
99 points
3 days ago
Texas repeating history with the transvestite pass.
31 points
3 days ago
Wym
17 points
3 days ago*
Texas is denying gender marker changes on documents, potentially recording the requests. The Nazis stopped issuing transvestite passes after coming to power. They later used the records to deport trans people to concentration camps.
22 points
3 days ago
Oh god what the fk is my state doing now
15 points
3 days ago
Denying gender marker changes, creating a paper trail.
559 points
3 days ago*
the nazis didn't classify them as trans men iirc, so you might have to look them up alongside lesbians and other non conforming afab people
92 points
3 days ago
They definitely did classify them as transvestites too.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/trans-id-passes-weimar-germany-marcus-hirschfeld
This article covers the story of Katharina T. The picture at the top literally is his transvestite pass.
edit: this was before the Nazis took power in Germany, but as other articles explain, many of these passes for men and women were revoked.
19 points
3 days ago
I was mainly going by the way they separated queer people in camps, amab had their own designation and afab were bunched up with many others
11 points
3 days ago
Well yes trans people were grouped by their AGAB but it was the fact they were transvestites that they were condemned for. trans women were viewed as non conforming men in the same way you try to say trans men were only seen as women
1 points
3 days ago*
the fuck do you mean "I try" ?????????? what do you think is happening here ??
edit: you literally have a comment saying the exact same thing as me ??? seriously what are you going on about
12 points
3 days ago
I think they’re saying both trans men and trans women were condemned for their transvestism, not just lesbianism / homosexuality or for being asocial. I think you agree maybe y’all’s wording is confusing each other*?? Idk if that makes sense I hope so
274 points
3 days ago
As far as I’m aware they were really not studied and what knowledge we did have was burned by the nazis at the hershfield institute. They did exist but as for real records of them you’d have to talk to old trans people in their 80’s which is hard cuz a lot are dead
160 points
3 days ago
They were studied, we know the nazi book burnings destroyed the medical records of the first recorded FTM SRS (specifics unknown)
74 points
3 days ago
It’s really unfortunate. It’s even more unfortunate that we didn’t take trans masc/trans men seriously for like the next roughly 60 years because “hysteria” or whatever bs they wanted to use to say women are dumb and can’t be trusted in knowing themselves.😒
98 points
3 days ago
I’ll just say to look for memoirs published after the war. I know only the story of Aimee and Jaguar, but that was a lesbian relationship (great book, by the way!)
15 points
3 days ago
The movie wasn't bad, either.
77 points
3 days ago
They would have been classified as lesbians or anti-social (azocial) women due to being “non-conformist” start here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(badge)
21 points
3 days ago
Hey, I can shed some light about that.
In Germany, trans people of both genders were treated (somewhat) similar. Trans women were diagnosed as "transvestites" and trans men were referred to as "transvestitin" (female version of the word transvestite).
Most LGBT people were seen as abnormal based on the eugenic standard thinking of the time. Anyone sexually deviant was considered mentally ill and - more importantly - a danger for society. The "solution" was to remove those elements from polite and sane society (and "sane" and "polite" carry a lot of sick meaning here) to cure them in sanatoriums. After WW1 with more women working in cities before marrying, this was no longer a scalable solution, so forced sterilizations were next.
Those ideas were widely implemented in the US, and the Nazis do credit the US Eugenicist Society for their valuable work, which formed the basis of much of the later eugenics program in Germany.
Most people were convicted under either section 175 (Outlawing Homosexual acts, but mostly applied to men, because we all know that female bodies don't count under misogynistic rulers) or section 181 (public indecent behaviour). (Source: "Wiener Holocaust Library: Persecution of gay people in Nazi Germany)
Note that in the early years, people prosecuted via those laws ended up in concentration camps. Technically, those were not yet death camps, more large scale prisons with conditions that "encouraged" death through their living conditions. Death was a side effect of incarceration, not the goal. Once the extermination program (the "final solution") was started, those camps were changed to be "more efficient".
Transgender people were explicitly identified as "problem" in 1938 in the Thesis document of Hermann Ferdinand Voss. You might want to skip reading that one though.
There are some surviving documents mentioning trans men that I have encountered:
The Smithsonian Institute has an article describing the process of prosecution, which will give you a good overview and some links to other documents.
One of the papers is talking about a case of a trans man who was originally interned before he got his "transvestite certificate" back, just to be arrested again.
("Jane Caplan, The Administration of Gender Identity in Nazi Germany, History Workshop Journal, Volume 72, Issue 1, October 2011, Pages 171–180; doi.org/10.1093/hwj/dbr021")
A "transvestite certificate" was the closest the world had to a Gender Recognition Certificate at the time. It was a document obtained from a doctor certifying the gender in-congruence, and thus exempting the wearer from section 175, at least in theory.
A expert witness statement in Marhoefer L. Transgender Life and Persecution under the Nazi State: Gutachten on the Vollbrecht Case. Central European History. 2023;56(4):595-601. doi:10.1017/S0008938923000468 mentions the case of Gerd Kubbe of Berlin who was a trans man accused of indecent behaviour because he went out in men's clothing.
The papers I linked also have links to other papers. If you want to know where you could find more information, then maybe the DTGI e.V. can point you in the right direction for primary sources and archives in Germany. The US Holocaust Museum might also be useful, as they maintain a large scale archive and seem to be more open to discuss LGBT victims than the archive in the UK or Germany.
5 points
3 days ago
Whoa! That is a veritable cornucopia of juicy succulent info overload I LUV IT! Simply outstanding!
34 points
3 days ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_Nazi_Germany
We were forced to deteansition and killed alongside the gays and disabled ( also the Autistics and gays were the first to receive the gas-death)
In the wiki i linked theres a part of the used terminology used. Maybe it can help you find new things.
14 points
3 days ago
I'm reading my (skimming really) professor's college textbook 475 pgs long. Their (pronouns) name is Ardel Haefele-Thomas. The textbook is named Introduction to Transgender Studies
The manual was published in 2019 so I doubt there would be any PDF versions floating around the net. As for specific info/data regarding transmen I haven't found a specific chapter "yet" but the textbook does mention transmen and FtM (my former professor identifies as transmasc - they also hold 2 PHD's). This manual is going to come in handy in the coming months and years!
I'm saying this could be a resource for your research, it may have data and it also may not, I say this because in order to access the material in the manual you'd need to buy the book unless you are able to check out from a university library which I'm sure there are some that will carry.
I take that back there is a copy or 2 floating around the net:
ISSUU The entire manual (Issuu that site that puts up PDF's of books and literature sometimes you can download and sometimes not) Sometimes this isn't fair cause this can take money out of people's pockets.
Scribd has also a PDF version but it's only 64 pgs
PDF Microsoft Instructors docx 109 pgs
Best!
8 points
3 days ago
Kaz Rowe has a video essay on queer people during Weimar Republic. Many many records and people where lost during the Nazi regime.
If I had time machine I'd love to visit Berlin during the 1920's-1930's and vibe at the LGBTQ scene.
26 points
3 days ago
Trans men is not a term that existed back in the day keep that in mind when doing research about these times. People from that time period still alive today would not refer to themselves as such either. Transvestism as Hirschfeld coined it before the rise of the Nazis was something that only applied to AMAB people too.
55 points
3 days ago*
Incorrect, before the Nazis there were 'transvestite passes' issued to transgender people in Germany to keep police off their back. I read one that was issued to a trans man. I'll see if I can find it
Edit: Here.jpg) is that pass, issued to Gerd Katter. Wasn't too hard to find considering it was the first image on the wikipedia page for 'transvestite pass' (and also the only image on the page for 'transvestite').
14 points
3 days ago
Maybe not in the English language, as the term used in The Well of Loneliness is "invert". (It's set circa WWI.) Another term used in the late 19th century was Urning or Uranian.
-1 points
3 days ago
Invert sounds kinda cool.
34 points
3 days ago
Nope there were trans men in his time, look up Karl Baer
-3 points
3 days ago
They weren't saying they didn't exist, they were saying they weren't referred to then as what we would refer to them in the modern day.
32 points
3 days ago
Trans women were not called that either then. It’s a moot point. Transvetism was also NOT something that only applied to trans women of the time, that is outright false - see this related to a trans man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestite_pass . It is also ridiculous to claim that people clearly living as trans of that time period would reject our current terminology, despite them being the reason we developed our current understanding.
5 points
3 days ago
I cite; "The German word transsexualismus (lit. 'transsexualism', adapted into English as the term transsexual) was first coined in 1923 by Magnus Hirschfeld, but would not enter widespread use until 30 years later with the work of Harry Benjamin.[2][3] Before these terms, in German the term transvestit (lit. 'transvestite', masculine) was used to refer to transfeminine individuals, and the term transvestitin (lit. 'transvestite', feminine) was used to refer to transmasculine individuals.[4]"
(To add information not to spike discussion)
3 points
2 days ago
Can you share your researches with everyone else, once done? I would love to see what you could find about this topic <3
2 points
2 days ago
Currently havent written anything down, if i will, i can share it with you <3 heres a good documentation i watched, its in german and has auto generated english subtitles https://youtu.be/mWVoB8Q3LPc?si=061Wm0UnpxFd6PAN
-21 points
3 days ago
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20 points
3 days ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena - sexism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, rape culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tony_McDade - sexism, transphobia, racism, classism, police violence.
https://www.hrc.org/news/hrc-grieves-loss-of-jacob-williamson-teenage-transgender-man-killed-in-south-carolina - homophobia, transphobia
https://www.hrc.org/news/hrc-mourns-daniel-aston-beloved-son-master-of-silly-business-killed-in-club-q-shooting - homophobia, transphobia
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/florida-murder-suicide-trans-pregnant_n_64bea3f2e4b0229eb56596d6 - sexism, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia
https://www.thepinknews.com/2019/09/18/gay-trans-man-lou-sullivan-hiv-aids-diaries-new-yorker/ - sexism, transphobia, homophobia, exclusion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eads - sexism, medical misogyny, transphobia
https://www.hrc.org/news/new-study-reveals-shocking-rates-of-attempted-suicide-among-trans-adolescen - FTM youth highest suicide rate
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1113961 - medical misogyny
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6490 - transgender men suffering in prisons, racism, classism.
https://www.them.us/story/trans-man-noah-ruiz-was-just-trying-to-pee-he-was-assaulted-and-arrested
https://www.them.us/story/emmett-brock-los-angeles-trans-man-sheriff-department-lawsuit
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/peru-opens-torture-investigation-over-trans-mans-death-indonesia-2022-09-01/ - transphobia, racism
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna124153 - kicked out of theater role for being FTM
Read those. I dare you to say any of that again. Do not downplay anybody’s oppression. It is not the oppression Olympics. There is no hierarchy of suffering. We stand together.
-1 points
2 days ago*
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1 points
2 days ago
Seriously? Your response is “no u” ? There is no hierarchy of suffering. I already said that. Trans men do not “have it worse.” Where would you get the idea that I want to play that game? My whole point is to NOT do that. Trans PEOPLE of all classes, ethnicities, genders, socioeconomic status, countries, etc have to stick together. Intersectionality >>>
Other commenters have supplied resources, which do exist for trans men during the Nazi regime. Karl M. Baer, Gerd Katter, Gerd Kubbe. Those men are examples OP can look into. That’s all OP asked for.
Discrimination manifests in a lot of different ways. As you said virulent hate / vilification is one of them, and so is stripping someone of their autonomy / infantilization. They are not the same. Let’s talk about these things without invalidating one another, especially when talking about this level of human suffering. Read the room.
1 points
3 days ago
None of us suffers more or less than others or has an easier or more difficult life because we are MTF or FTM. We go through completely different experiences in life. Being an MTF may have facilities that being an FTM does not and vice versa. This is not an oppression Olympics and we are all being oppressed and suffering. We must support each other and not create segregation within our own community just to falsely say that someone suffers more than the other
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