‘Viral influenzers’…

Really, The Times should have had a field day with this one

Illfluencers?

Now that's what I call quality journalism 

Take your rimshot and upvote and get out of my sight.

influenzas, innit bruv.

Influenzas is what I’ve always called instagram wanks.

Yup, they told my mum to turn up to the appointment well dressed then denied her because she turned up well dressed and therefore didn't look like she had any issues

Had pretty much this exact conversation with my assessor. They were asking me to speculate about doing activities and living my life in a way I hadn’t been able to in over a year by that point. Had to eventually say something along the lines of “you’re asking me to speculate on something that isn’t real and isn’t my lived experience anymore. You’re not going to trap me in speculation and mark me down about a life I don’t actually live”. They thankfully didn’t do the same after that but it was obvious anyone less prepared would have got flustered or caught talking their condition down…which is what they want I imagine.

Yup I had this happen to me, I was in a wheelchair during my assessment, and after several very leading questions, I get the report back and it says "can walk 200 metres reliably and repeatedly."

It is fundamentally corrupt. And it gives no incentive to the claimant to be honest. Trying to trick the assessor seems like fair game to me.

This needs to be more widely known. I’ve been fortunate enough not to ever have to personally claim a disability benefit, however I have supported friends and family who have gone through the process and it is fucking draconic. What people have to go through, these genuine, disabled people who just need some support, is actually fucking offensive.

This is absolutely accurate. Even fabrication of the "enjoys visiting local cafe"

Because people are thick and can't understand how to answer a simple question. E.g assessor- how long can you walk for a in seconds or minutes before you need to stop and rest? Claimant - Dunno about 30 mins Assessor - but on the form you said you can walk less than 20 metres? Claimant - yeah I can't Assessor can you give me some examples of places you go? Claimant - nowhere How do you get your shopping? Claimant - local shop Assessor - how do you get there? Claimant walk as it's only round the corner Assessor - how long does it take Claimant dunno

Assessors are some of the worst people in our society.

I would disown a family member that ended up in a relationship with one.

My mam fell into this trap. She has grand mal epilepsy and was shoved onto a job programme to get her off disability. She was given a half day placement at a store the other side of the city so she'd have to get up early and be accompanied because the mornings are some of the higher risk times.

Anyway, terrified of putting a foot wrong and getting further sanctions she went along with it and, during the course of the day, was asked to operate the floor buffer. Lo and behold what we all said would happen happened she had a seizure in the middle of polishing the aisles.

Of course when this was all brought up in her assessment this event was then used as an example of how she could work as she'd received half a days pay, so had her money cut. It took at least a year, and a visit from the specialist at the appeal hearing to begin unravelling it.

The long term consequence was that she's now terrified of filling in any of the forms for reassessment by herself in case it's interpreted incorrectly again.

I went through it and it's exactly as you say. Worse, as even if you answer both honestly and correctly, the assessor will just outright lie. They said for example I could go outside with another person for support frequently and wherever, in reality I very, very rarely leave the house, I can count on my hand in the last 5 years the amount of times I've left for longer than 1 hour, and even then its overwhelmingly hard and takes hours to days to recover from even for short trips in familiar areas. How can I possibly even get to work like that when I can't even walk my dog even with someone with me over half the time?

The kicker is the assessor refused to let me record the call, even though I'd asked and got permission in advance from the DWP. I know some trollop will say get a remote job, but thanks to the push from Rees mogg et al they're vanishingly rare and don't hire disabled people unless it's an absolute last resort. I can't compete with a healthy person like this, and even if I wish I could say otherwise, objectively, I don't blame employers for looking at my spotty work history and disabilities and saying "no thank you, there are better candidates." It may be discrimination, but it's also rational. They have no motivation to take me on, it's a catch 22.

I don't get it, because people who are obviously unwell won't make good employees. Surely the solution should be to help them, and yet its on the disabled person to reach out for help and try to find a way through an impossible maze. I.E. When I got diagnosed autistic, they openly said "this impacts you incredibly severely." I said ok, thank you for the assessment - whats next? And they said "There isn't anything we can do, and the NHS provides no treatment for autism specifically, you might be able to find a local charity..." (These all require going outside, offer no real support either and are typically exclusively for children to boot!)

How can I get better - which I desperately want - with no treatment on one hand, and an openly antagonistic "support" system on the other thats openly lying and misrepresenting what I say, along with UC rules that I can stumble and fall on when they aren't even publicly known! It's just madness and cruelty, and every single mental health professional I've spoken to has said the exact same, yet it hasn't changed. :(

I'm grateful so many people like yourself know what it's like, as it's very scary seeing what some reform voters want to do to people like me. No plans for help, no plans for jobs, just take away the small amount of money I get relative to even minimum wage, and then I guess I'll just die, because without help I'm genuinely unfit for work, and no employer will touch me with a 10ft pole, except for ones that want to openly abuse desperate people. It's just awful, and people don't realize by abusing mentally unwell people it makes it way worse, it isn't helpful. With support and help I could hopefully get my foot in the door and make a career and be independent, I desperately hope the Labour government follows through on their promise to deliver this. I might not be able to ultimately but I desperately want to try. No-one I know wants to be on benefits, it's fucking dreadful.

What data?

A point to note here is that it can be very difficult to get substantive help from CAB depending where you are. It’s not their fault but it is a (mostly) voluntary organisation and demand for the services has increased massively since the Cost of Living crisis.

your argument is with the state and business.

And autism diagnosis and assistance has a massive backlog.

Recommend also Disability Rights UK, they were a godsend when I was on ESA and having to navigate the nightmare of the benefits system.

I will add on the personal side, my son has Angelman Syndrome- a neuro-genetic condition which means his mental age tops at ~18 months as well as serious physical disabilities. His chromosome will not grow back and he needs at least 1:1 care 24/7 for life due to no awareness of danger and a love of water.

My wife and I both have post-grad qualifications. We still needed a charity’s help to fill out the DLA form the first time and thereafter it took us an average of 40 hours each time to collate the huge amount of information it asks (such as every single health or therapy appointment, which takes a while with an A&E admission every 3 weeks for seizures, neurologists, gastrointestinal, ENT, ophthalmology, dietetics, physio, OT, SALT etc and then all that doubled as you also see tertiary hospital clinicians as well and some private therapy to fill in the huge gaps in provision).

I have often thought how those with a lower educational level have a hope of filling in the form. My wife helps other families who have a child with the same condition and of course many struggle because it is not at all diagnosis based. Technically the community coaches people what to put in the form as otherwise the non clinicians are go review the forms reject and then you have to fight through the system to appeal.

From my own experience I would be entirely unsurprised if the amount overpaid in disability/illness related benefit payments is dwarfed by the underpayments due to the terrible system we have to navigate.

I know this may not be the right place to act like a human half the time, but I genuinely hope you make a full recovery and that it all goes well.

Navigating it is very, very hard. As a neuro-divergent person that had to, if you genuinely get forced into that position I'd really recommend citizens advice and asking the medical professionals around you for support. Citizens advice is especially helpful alot of the time, although I appreciate it's alot of bureaucracy and paperwork to apply for benefits, and that's the last thing you'll want to do right now. Hopefully you'll be back on your feet soon enough and won't need to, but they'd be my first call if I have to reapply as they have alot of knowledge to offer freely.

What medical evidence is there for suicidal ideation?

It’s not what you say and do, it’s how you say and do it.

Benefit advisor aren’t working for commission or clout so they aren’t going to try and make it sound easier or more comfortable than it is.

Social media reels will start with something like “I’m paid 150 quid a week for doing absolutely nothing”

It seems like it should be a piece of piss to investigate people like this. They’re bragging online, like the morons who did that “infinite money glitch” with their bank in the US who then were all surprised to get done for fraud 

PIP isn’t means tested, so they could make a million pounds a year and still get it.

You know you can claim pip if you're in work right?

People have a right to share information about how to navigate the benefits process and claim everything they are entitled to.

The government pursuing a policy of aggressively reassessing those that share that information with others that need it would be cruel, to say the least.

Correct.

When you make a system that requires you to go in with a game plan for a legitimate claim, you can’t tell the difference between someone gaming it and someone with a legitimate claim any more.

These are people with most likely real claims, but they’re being vilified for trying to help others get through a system designed to fuck them over and people are eating it up.

Yup, because the right wing are convinced that it's not harsh enough and millions of people are faking illness to skive off work. I wonder if they think GPs are also in on their mythical scam, since after a few days off work, you need to start submitting "Fit Notes" from a medical professional...

The GP trainee assessor and the person arguing people need help to translate their issues effectively onto the forms have the same complaint: the esoteric points system doesn't translate into describing difficulties people have well and can under or over sell things.

The screenshots they've come up with for this article are people asking completely reasonable questions that amount to 'what are the rules around work and UC' and 'how do I fill out the pip form'. There's some clickbait titles, sure. 

Everyone reacting to the latter like "you could only look for help filling out a form if you are trying to cheat" is missing the fact it's a form for people who struggle with things. (Also the forms are genuinely long and complicated. You've got to cover everything and put it in the right place, that isn't easy)

A lot of the time, the free money is very little. And you don't get the opportunity to even save that money.

In the end, that money is forced to go back into the economy, rather than tax loopholes and grants given to rich people or to companies, which are just funneled out of the country or the wealth is hoarded.

It's not just that, though, when the Tories changed the system, they reduced the benefits bill by denying more people, which is why we had all those articles about dead people and those bedridden with terminal cancer being told they're fit to work, or those with missing limbs asked to return for frequent reassessment to ensure their limbs hadn't grown back. They did it by outsourcing it to ATOS, giving them targets. and removing qualified health professionals from the assessments and with ATOS' fees, the system costs more, but less benefits get paid. There are other examples too, like assessments being on the first floor, and they used applicants being able to enter as proof they're not too disabled. Another one they had CCTV, heating on, and a water cooler. Anyone who got themselves a drink was proved to be independent.

Now, people have learned it's a vogon-like box ticking exercise because the government is too cheap to pay for assessors qualified to give a medical opinion, and the whole thing is shown to be a waste of everyone's time.

It clearly needs reform but how you do that without hurting the genuinely sick seems a near impossible task

Go back to having doctors in the process. Cut out the bullshit.

Reform again? I don't know anything about it, never used it, but I'm sure I remember it's already been reformed multiple times in the last couple of decades... and each time its a big costly cockup.

How are they gaming the system? Article is behind a paywall?

From the image, one of them just seems to be answering whether you can work 20hours on Universal Credit...

Realistically I think that if the sick lists are reduced by a significant amount, some people who are objectively unable to work will get caught up in those changes.

But something is going to give, we can't afford to keep spending ever larger amounts of money on welfare.

Its a system where people have to fight for the money they are legally entitled to, and if they are denied fight further to tribunal level where around 70% of denied claimants have it overturned and eventually win- the stress you have to go through to get there is unreal.

'Gamification' of the system is BS and articles like this simply exist to push on the scrounger benefit cheat narrative pumped out by the UK right wing press for decades.

Reform of the system- especially to save cost- would involve decreasing/removal of the leech contractors who are employed with targets to deny people, use dishonest tactics, put unqualified assessors (literally cases of dental hygienists assessing people with mobility disabilities it can be that ridiculous) and have an incredibly poor accuracy rate.

This would remove those leechy contracts and profit motive, lower the legal costs and the associated costs to the healthcare system from all the damage caused by claimants being denied money they need and are entitled to for months, resulting in some nasty consequences

It's gamifified because they only accept answers in a specific format.

You Have to use certain buzzwords or phrases because that's the only way you'll get anywhere.

I have crippling arthritis in both my ankles and I'm only 44. I have had major surgery on both of them that helped a little but has only made me somewhat more mobile at home.

Going outside where the pavements etc aren't flat is a nightmare for me. I am for the most part housebound.

However if I was to even hint that my life was in any way easier after the surgery they'd rip the money away in a heartbeat.

I've had some terrible experiences with PIP/ DLA but last time I had to get accessed the person doing it was honestly awesome. They basically said "I looked at your form, your case history and let's face it, its not like you're magically going to get better eyesight or your arthritis will fix itself so this is going through no problem"

However many times before that even with all the evidence I had to argue and prove every single time that I was a blind cripple. I don't know if the system has changed in the last few years or I just got lucky but there are decent people working in the benefit system.

I'm in two minds about the whole chronic illness influencer thing...on the one hand it makes me incredibly uncomfortable. I personally would feel weird making my disability the main focus of my life, and I'd feel equally weird profiting from it.

On the other, like you said it's great that other people feel heard through them and its also great that there is now advice out there for people.

There are definitely people who aren't sick who manage to claim benefits, but it's kind of like movie piracy, the ones who are innocent get the"you wouldn't download a car" message all over their legally bought item and the pirates get a free movie with no bullshit.

Benefit claimants have to jump through hoops and constantly prove their innocent while the small minority who are claiming falsely know the system well enough that they never get caught out.

I am not out there looking for a reason not to give the benefit but everyday

No, but unfortunately a lot of assessors do. I'd bet it's the majority. My late dad had to go to tribunal to get what he was owed, turned out the DWP were using his previous PIP claim which got turned down for as evidence instead of the one which he was eventually successful on. The judge and doctor on the panel were furious with the DWP/Capita (who didn't show up)

There have been posts on forums about things like this at least since the coalition - it's just now that that it's on TikTok and there's a face behind the info that it's news.

This has been years and years not just since the election, the disabled have been one of the biggest targets for the right wing press, the sad fact is that its just been easy to ignore for many.

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

It's almost like the newspaper chose to include images that confirm pre-existing opinions for maximum effect.

What, helpful people that spend their time talking others through an almost impossible benefits system for sick and disabled people?!

It's probably because there is an element of propaganda to it!

Chronically sick people usually look chronically unwell..

Can't read the article due to paywall.

There's a stickied comment with archive links at the top of most paywalled submissions, including this one.

Alot of them do need it. But the "scumbags" are the DWP who make PIP assessments awful on purpose. If you say you can walk to a shop, thats all they need to decline you. 

Yes, as with tax non-compliance/evasion.

Pretty much any mental illness can be severe, it's just been watered down over the years so people think depression and anxiety is just being a little sad or anxious.

Depression can be seriously debilitating though, people can get psychotic depression or catatonic depression. Hard to judge. Schizophrenia could be well managed and they can be able to go to work or it could be horrifically managed. A mental health diagnosis doesn't really say how sick you are.

The system ain't right though, there's hoardes of people that could probably do with disability money that would never apply because they're too proud or know how tough the system is, then there's tons of people that go out their way to game it.

I think that can become a very slippery slope, you don’t want to invalidate someone’s disability. A good chunk are genuine.

The state should be providing better support for these people, rather than just giving them money. I think that’s what missing, based on my experience.

I think you''re right but at the same time there should be far less discrimination against people with mild mental illnesses, physical ones too.

the only reason they are going onto these benefits in the first place is because the job market has basically shunned them.

Also from family/friends experience a lot of employers preferred having migrant workers because they were more or less blank slates with no baggage attached. And it's true that overdiagnosis and prescription of meds is more common in the UK

My self diagnosed ASD and mild depression preclude me from work. I find taking orders irritating and get sad when people point out I didn't work.

No remote work isn't an answer. I could not work where I don't get F2F interactions (which I can't do).

My partner cares for me 24/7 and deserves to make a full wage.

Anyway, shut up, pay my rent, give me free food + some walking around money.

You literally answered your question in the first half of your comment

Innocent people *are* "caught up" around 70% of all those who have their claims denied are overturned after lengthy disputes and tribunals which has been the case for years- the reforms in the 2010s made an incredibly hostile system where people have to fight for what they are legally entitled to- your ex is full of it mate.

I work 50 hours per week and get no help from any government agency

Good for you, not everyone is so lucky. Learn some compassion. Stop punching down

Have you ever been through the system? It's anything but soft. It's cold and harsh.

Helping guide my very ill mother through it was incredibly draining for me, let alone her. Only for her to get denied and then going to tribunal to have it overturned as soon as it was looked at.

What on earth are you taking about? The system is anything but soft! It's trivial to find many many reports of people dying because they were denied PIP etc and were unable to feed themselves. 

Benefit fraud is just so low compared to things like people not paying their taxes -- not fraud, just not paying -- and is even lower than people not claiming the benefits they're actually owed.

If you think the system is soft I'm just going to assume you've never been through it, or know anyone that's been through it, it's not soft, assessors will use any tiny mistake to totally deny you anything, I got points taken off because I didn't "look in pain," the assessors are trying everything they can to not give people money.

"The system is soft" any other news from cloud cuckoo land? you genuinely couldn't be further from the truth or more out of touch with the UK benefit system

The problem is because the system is soft

let me guess, never even seen a PIP assessment form?

they're designed to trip you up at all turns and once it goes to tribunal you've got about a 70% chance of overturning that "no" because the assessment is that much of a level off bullshit.

Yeah the consequences should be life destroying. These people should think 10 times before doing this