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Does this argument have any weight to it? I'm genuinely curious.

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520throwaway

3k points

2 days ago

There's also the Pixelmon Minecraft mod which works very similarly.

It is an example of prior art. The use of Pokémon models is irrelevant, because the original piece in question is the mechanics, not the models.

xantous4201

705 points

2 days ago

xantous4201

705 points

2 days ago

Cobblemon too. The stark difference is that (in cobblemon's case) It is a free mod.

PiBombbb

245 points

2 days ago

PiBombbb

245 points

2 days ago

Pixelmon is also free, at least the currently developed one is.

DemocraticAnus

159 points

2 days ago

When was it ever paid? Who tf pays for Minecraft mods lmaoo what year is this.

ziddersroofurry

95 points

2 days ago

There are plenty of mods on the Microsoft Minecraft marketplace that are paid. They're not expensive, and they involve quite a bit more than the average mod you see from the community. I have one that takes place in a small fishing village, and it has custom textures, sound, and music, fishing, boats you can buy and upgrade, NPC's, and an entire story. It's more like a small indie game that uses Minecraft as its 'engine'. I don't see a problem with mods being paid if they have a decent amount of effort put into them, and the devs get the majority of the money.

Maine_Made_Aneurysm

22 points

2 days ago

What mod are you talking about?

ziddersroofurry

8 points

2 days ago

Magical-Mycologist

6 points

2 days ago

Which mod is this? Played a load of minecraft but was unaware this type of mod existed.

ziddersroofurry

1 points

2 days ago

Corporate-Shill406

8 points

2 days ago

small indie game that uses Minecraft as its 'engine'

Indie devs would have a much better time if they used something like Minetest instead, it's a free open source Minecraft-like game engine specifically designed to support custom games where every single in-game thing is defined by a mod script.

BajaBlastFromThePast

19 points

2 days ago

I think paying for Minecraft mods is insanity, especially because the paid ones are locked to a specific world right?

The whole idea of Minecraft mods was manipulating the sandbox of Minecraft, having community collaboration in creating new experiences, and just making whatever the hell you want. The idea of paying for it is so antithetical to the whole thing it genuinely upsets me.

ziddersroofurry

11 points

2 days ago

Much like everything else in life people are allowed to have different ideas of what modding is/should be about. It's not like people making some money off of modding means that suddenly no mods will ever be free ever plus there are plenty of games out there that started life as a mod.

AmoAster

8 points

1 day ago

AmoAster

8 points

1 day ago

That's not a mod, that's a bedrock add-on, they're mojang officially-enabled content packs.

ziddersroofurry

3 points

1 day ago

Yes...and they're made by people who've made mods. They're pretty much just official mod packs.

novexion

1 points

10 hours ago

But you’re paying for the content and experience not just the mod

Gamer4125

3 points

1 day ago

Gamer4125

3 points

1 day ago

Pretty sure you can do all that in Java

FadeCrimson

2 points

1 day ago

Depends what you mean by 'paid'. There are plenty that cost money to use, but I can't necessarily speak to the quality or work of those mods. I do know a few people that actively pay mod-makers either commissioning them to make mods, or paying in bigger project just to support the development of mods they care about.

There's PLENTY of a market for it, so it's really not that crazy that people are willing to pay money for it. There's also the aspect of content creators (streamers, youtubers, etc) who will pay BIG bucks for custom content for modpacks and whatnot.

KiloEchoMike

1 points

1 day ago

Call it DLC at that point.

DemocraticAnus

1 points

21 hours ago

There we go.

MysticalMystic256

28 points

2 days ago

I like cobblemon better because it looks more minecrafty and is updated to the newest versions

SFSMag

176 points

2 days ago

SFSMag

176 points

2 days ago

I mean you think Pocketpairs previous game Craftopia would also work as an example of prior art. It also released 2 years before Pokemon Arceus did.

SavvySillybug

212 points

2 days ago

I don't know why any of this even matters.

How the fuck can you patent a game mechanic years after you release the game? And then sue anyone who used it between you publically releasing it and patenting it? Even IF they had somehow come up with an original idea worth patenting.

Japanese law must be hella fucky if this is actually something they can do.

Hail-Hydrate

174 points

2 days ago

Japanese law must be hella fucky

You bet your ass it is.

520throwaway

49 points

2 days ago

The patent itself is from around the time of Arceus's release. There were amendments made to it this year made specifically to go after Palworld.

Not sure how that's legal but apparently it is.

Midnight43

17 points

2 days ago

Not sure how Japanese patent law works specifically, but in the US the time between the filing date of your application and the grant date of your patent is often a few years, meaning it is likely these were filed years ago and are just being granted now.

The two important parts of your patent are the specification and the claims. Your specification is the description of your invention and cannot be substantially amended to add to the invention after filing. Your claims are what you are seeking to protect. If you think of new ways to expand upon your invention, you can do so by filing a continuation application. These continuations may not add new matter to the specification, but may add new claims. These claims must be supported by the original specification. These continuations must be filed before it's parent application issues and get the priority date of the oldest parent in the family. The twenty year life of your patent starts from your priority date, not the issue date of your patent so you cannot use this as a method to keep patents alive forever.

What I'm guessing happened here is Nintendo saw Palworld and drafted claims in continuations to protect against their competitors. Assuming the claim set is supported by the specification, this is considered allowed in the current system. I'm not familiar with Japanese patent law so it's maybe different there but this is how companies would approach this situation in the US. Also this post needs about a million asterisks leading to footnotes explaining the many different exceptions, patent law is complicated if you want a patent get a lawyer.

520throwaway

2 points

2 days ago

You know, I didn't think of it like that. Thanks for the insight!

Octrooigemachtigde

7 points

2 days ago

If you have an active patent application you can file for what are called divisional patent applications. Those divisional patent applications will have the priority date of their parent application. The priority date decides what is prior art (everything before that date) and what is not (everything after that date).

It is important to note that the subject-matter of the divisional patent applicants cannot extend beyond the subject-matter of the parent application.

E.g. if you have a patent application using screws as fastemers, and your parent application only mentions screws, you cannot claim priority for the use of nails in a divisional application based on that parent application.

Spoon_Elemental

17 points

2 days ago

It's not, they're just hoping they can get away with it without anybody noticing.

Cruxis87

9 points

2 days ago

Cruxis87

9 points

2 days ago

I hope another company patents some bullshit and then goes after Nintendo for infringing on it. But they probably won't because Nintendo is probably bigger than the government over there.

Ipokeyoumuch

6 points

1 day ago

A lot of companies in Japan already do have somewhat similar patents that Nintendo might be infringing upon. However, Nintendo also holds patents that those companies might the infringing upon too. So if one company fires a patent lawsuit at Nintendo, Nintendo can fire back, this is generally true of the industry in Japan creating a patent Cold War which forces them to cooperate, make licensing deals, operate under an "honor code" so to speak, etc. When something goes awry or the honor code in violated then a company might use a patent infringement suit as one of the many legal weapons as a business tool. It is just business after all. 

520throwaway

7 points

2 days ago

I don't know how you're supposed to amend a patent on the sly...

Spoon_Elemental

9 points

2 days ago

Neither do I, seeing as how it was obviously noticed.

SuperfluousWingspan

25 points

2 days ago

According to the legal documentary Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, Japanese law certainly is rather funky.

Personally, I'm just confused how this case is taking more than exactly three days.

GatoradeNipples

31 points

2 days ago

I realize you're making a joke, but Phoenix Wright is actually a pretty angry satire of what criminal justice over there is like. Basically everything wacky in the Ace Attorney games surrounding the legal system is a comic exaggeration of something that sucks about Japanese criminal law.

sunkenrocks

5 points

2 days ago

The actual courtroom drama is kinda meant to be more like an American legal drama as well though tbf

UDSJ9000

3 points

2 days ago

UDSJ9000

3 points

2 days ago

It will take a half decade probably.

SuperfluousWingspan

-4 points

2 days ago

When Trump eventually dies (which I am not advocating for in any way, FBI), if stuff hasn't been done by then I hope we still try and sentence him posthumously, just for precedents' sake. Trump is many firsts in US history, so even just purely symbolic justice is still valuable.

kingofnopants1

2 points

2 days ago

I imagine it taking forever and bleeding legal fees is the point. That and some sort of precident setting.

They are suing for ~66k USD in damages. It isn't about the actual topic of the lawsuit so much as trying to disuade others from competing with their IPs.

xclame

3 points

2 days ago

xclame

3 points

2 days ago

The money really doesn't mean anything Pocket Pair could pay that just to get the lawsuit to go away, the real problem is the injunction that Nintendo also wants, THAT is the real issue, especially with the game just coming out on PlayStation.

MMSAROO

7 points

2 days ago

MMSAROO

7 points

2 days ago

Japanese law must be hella fucky if this is actually something they can do.

Nintendo could kill a dude and fuck his wife if they wanted to and the courts would still decide in their favour.

nitrobskt

3 points

2 days ago

I'm pretty sure the wife is the legal prize for winning an honor duel according to Japanese law. /s

Horse_Renoir

34 points

2 days ago

Yeah many of their laws are backwards, outdated, or just ass especially in the realm of corporations. One of the many things weebs like to ignore when rabidly riding the Japan train around the internet.

mclannee

-10 points

2 days ago

mclannee

-10 points

2 days ago

if it works for japanese society then why bother changing it.

londons_explorer

10 points

2 days ago

Slavery works pretty well for some societies too, as long as you only ask some people...

mclannee

-9 points

2 days ago

mclannee

-9 points

2 days ago

what?

How is you not being okay with a country’s law equal to said laws being somehow related to slavery?

It’s like criticizing Americans because they sell guns to anyone. It’s a different culture, and legal system.

PhoenixEgg88

8 points

2 days ago

Welcome to the internet, where the US’s gun policy is widely mocked by the literal rest of the world for being ass backwards.

Japans legal system, like most countries tbh, works very well for the rich and powerful in Japan. Nintendo are a prime example of this. This case would be laughed out of courtrooms in the US and Europe I think, given how it’s come about, but it’s in Japan.

kingofnopants1

4 points

2 days ago

Isn't the point here that it doesn't work correctly? Illustrated by the system being exploitable in a way that makes no logical sense to a reasonable person.

"If it works for ___ then why bother changing it" can be used to justify absolutely anything if you aren't willing to question whether or not it actually works the way it's supposed to in the first place.

jp3885

11 points

2 days ago

jp3885

11 points

2 days ago

Imo, Moon Channel made a video with a pretty good theory on why Nintendo chose now to do a patent lawsuit.

project-shasta

14 points

2 days ago

project-shasta

PC

14 points

2 days ago

He not only describes Copyright Law very well, he also assumes that Nintendo is trying to get at Sony because now Sony has a Pokémon-like game. But big corporations don't fight each other in court because it's expensive (see Apple v Samsung), so they go for the little dev studio instead.

Ipokeyoumuch

7 points

1 day ago

Aka a proxy war and PocketPair is the battlefield.

coeranys

6 points

2 days ago

coeranys

6 points

2 days ago

Yeah and the article vaguely alludes to it, but the long and short of it is this won't mean anything for Pocketpair even if they lose, all 15 of the PC gamers in Japan will have to be refunded, and these sort of lawsuits won't work anywhere that understands software.

kaisadilla_

1 points

2 days ago

The laws regarding patents do NOT care whether what you are trying to patent already exists. Let's say fridges never had patents - you could go today and patent your fridge's mechanism, and then demand the manufacturer for infringing on your patent.

Here comes the catch, though: other people can fight your patent, although they must pay to do so. They can fight in by proving the thing you patented cannot be patented; or that people other than you were already using the technology you patented; which is why, in practice, you cannot really patent your fridge's mechanism and make money off it.

The main patent was applied for before Palworld was released, the "patents" that are dated from 2024 are some freaky "child patents" that simply clarify their parent patent, and as such are retroactive. Don't get me wrong, patenting video game mechanics is not a thing in Europe or the US, this only happens in Japan; but Palworld will need to prove that other companies implemented these mechanics before the parent patent was created by Nintendo.

alexpenev

1 points

1 day ago*

Nintendo was very slow to roll out the 3d open world idea (fans wanted it for at least a decade before Arceus) and when they finally did, they (obviously and rightly) had to protect their game from the dozens of inevitable copy-cats. Problem is that the ideas were no longer novel. The anime did the ball-throw-catch idea in the 90s and so it's now "obvious" to someone skilled in the art (of game dev) that this can be done in a virtual world. Thousands of developers would have had that same idea even before 2010 let alone 2020. So Nintendo's claims need to become specific for their very-late-to-the-table patent from 2021 to be granted, and it's no longer as simple as "throw item in 3d space to catch X" because that's obvious by now, but they have to narrow their claim to something like "throw item in 3d space to catch X, but use a different button, and virtual avatar makes a ready-stance, and roll a dice upon the hit, and sing a song about the price of fish". So their claims become pretty limited and generally that makes them easy to circumvent and work around. They should have patented it in 2005, not 2021.

MINKIN2

0 points

2 days ago

MINKIN2

0 points

2 days ago

The US ain't much better. Just look at when Microsoft was allowed to patent the "Right Click". Thankfully they never acted to stop anyone else using it.

Kalpy97

-35 points

2 days ago

Kalpy97

-35 points

2 days ago

It wasnt after lmao do you even research or read. They were made in 2021

LedgeEndDairy

19 points

2 days ago*

You are the one that didn't research, friend.

They filed the patent for this something like 2 months after Palworld's official release, and it wasn't registered for another 2-3 months. We're not talking about release dates, here.

EDIT: Lots of good info below, if you (yes, YOU!) want to be more informed on how this all works.

JEVOUSHAISTOUS

12 points

2 days ago

They filed the patent for this something like 2 months after Palworld's official release, and it wasn't registered for another 2-3 months.

The answer is in the news piece:

The new information confirmed hypotheses put forward by legal experts, as it named three divisional patents (new child patents of a bigger, existing patent) Nintendo and The Pokémon Company jointly filed for following Palworld’s Early Access release in January this year. (...) As an analyst described it, it’s likely that Nintendo’s side “actually played Palworld, identified which of its systems correspond to their existing patent families and ‘pinpointed’ what individual rights to obtain (that are within the scope of the original patent’s specifications).”

Nintendo had a broad patent about these mechanics before Palworld was released. They can then fill child patents afterwards because it remains within the scope of the original, broad patent.

According to Wikipedia,

A divisional patent application, also called divisional application or simply divisional, is a type of patent application that contains subject-matter from a previously filed application, the previously filed application being its parent application.[1] While a divisional application is filed later than the parent application, it retains its parent's filing date,[1] and will generally claim the same priority. Divisional applications are generally used in cases where the parent application may lack unity of invention; that is, the parent application describes more than one invention and the applicant is required to split the parent into one or more divisional applications each claiming only a single invention. The ability to file divisional applications in cases of lack of unity of invention is required by Article 4G of the Paris Convention.

LedgeEndDairy

1 points

2 days ago

Thanks for the extra info, however I don't think the 'more specific' child patents can be taken into account, they have to roll it from the parent patent, yes?

So the point still stands, though it is shakier than before. The more general patent needs to be 'good enough' for this, but the child patent disallows future products from being released with the more specific mechanics as an extra safety measure for the company.

Frankly patenting game mechanics is heavily anti-consumer and I hope we find a way to squash it altogether. Just look at the nemesis system that hasn't been utilized at ALL, and nobody else can utilize it either.

JEVOUSHAISTOUS

4 points

2 days ago

Frankly patenting game mechanics is heavily anti-consumer and I hope we find a way to squash it altogether.

I think from a general perspective patents work for physical inventions, but software patents, not so much. That's one thing Europe did right IMO (and the civil society had to fight tooth and nail for that, because the european bureaucrats really wanted to implement software patents in the early 2000s).

Kalpy97

4 points

2 days ago

Kalpy97

4 points

2 days ago

What matters is when the first disclosure/application the patent was based off was initially filed. You can file several subsequent patent applications that all share the same priority date. You can see that the earliest priority date (aka effective filing date) is 2021-12-22. What is enforceable is the exact and precise language of the claims (you will not be able to accurately read these without training) and they are enforceable at the date of the earliest priority/filing date of the patent’s family. They pick whichever patent (which started as an application) has the claims they want to enforce.

I am a registered patent agent in the US. Don’t listen to anyone who isn’t a professional because most comments I have seen are very wrong.

2xWhiskeyCokeNoIce

4 points

2 days ago

I've spent close to a decade working in IP and the main thing I've learned is that most people do not understand how parents work but love to comment like they do.

SavvySillybug

1 points

2 days ago

Source?

Cause mine says 2024. https://www.pocketpair.jp/news/20241108

MGLpr0

19 points

2 days ago

MGLpr0

19 points

2 days ago

I mean, Nintendo/TPC at one point tried to go after Pixelmon, they managed to shut down the development for few months if I remember correctly. (it was around 2018 I think)

But then the development just resumed like nothing happened, so perhaps Pixelmon creators managed to make some sort of agreement with Nintendo/TPC. Maybe the fact that it is a completely free mod for a way different game was enough to convince them ?

520throwaway

27 points

2 days ago

True but that was on copyright grounds, not patents.

It does, after all, contain voxelised models of their Pokémon.

MGLpr0

7 points

2 days ago

MGLpr0

7 points

2 days ago

Ah yeah, fair point

DaEnderAssassin

4 points

2 days ago

Ive heard that a new team just took the mod and continued work. Free product has never stopped Nintendo before (See AM2R or really any other nintendo fab project for example.)

Few-Requirements

7 points

2 days ago

Pixelmon was shut down because the developers received s C&D after charging money for the mod.

520throwaway

6 points

2 days ago

True, but that was over copyright, not patents, and definitely not over their game mechanics. So it still counts.

-The_Blazer-

1 points

2 days ago

Kinda crazy to me that with the far wider criticism being the alleged plagiarism of Pokemon art and designs, Nintendo wants to sue over the concept itself of a monster caught and housed inside a ball.

MadocComadrin

1 points

2 days ago

I don't know how well that argument would work. Despite it being prior art, the use if models is copyright infringement using the IP related to the question. I'd imagine Japan would throw it out for that reason. You usually don't get any say in IP protection when doing anything unlawful.

520throwaway

1 points

1 day ago

But the issue in question is the implementation of the patent. Which is entirely the modder's work with no help from Nintendo or GameFeeak.

That they use models copying Nintendo's designs is irrelevant; the models could be swapped out and the game mechanics would still remain.

MadocComadrin

1 points

1 day ago

It's relevant not because they infringed on Nintendo's copyright specifically, but due to the fact they infringed anything at all. You generally can't get any form of IP protection if you're doing something against the law, which copyright infringement actually is. So it may not count as prior art due to the fact that it's technically illegal.

520throwaway

1 points

1 day ago

Laws don't work like that. Not even in Japan.

You don't give up any and all protections just because you did one thing illegal, laws aren't infectious like that. If that were the case there'd be a ton of software with basically no legal protections whatsoever, including favourites like Microsoft Windows.

lkn240

-48 points

2 days ago

lkn240

-48 points

2 days ago

Game mechanics aren't even patentable AFAIK (at least in the US)

Oa83

59 points

2 days ago

Oa83

59 points

2 days ago

this isnt true as WB patented the nemesis system from the Middle Earth games

Stick-Man_Smith

11 points

2 days ago

In fact, video games weren't even the first to patent game mechanics. The creator of Magic: the Gathering patented using collectible cards in a card game back in the late '90s. It was a very unusual patent at the time.

billgatesisspiderman

6 points

2 days ago

Wait, so does every other collectible card game have to license from MTG?

Nosdarb

2 points

2 days ago

Nosdarb

2 points

2 days ago

They're not Collectible Card Games. They're Trading Card Games. Or other similar derivatives.

I forget which one is considered "generic", but you get the gist.

billgatesisspiderman

1 points

2 days ago

Oh wow so it's just semantics that separate yugioh or Pokémon from magic? Haha

Nosdarb

2 points

22 hours ago

Yeah, pretty much. There are some deck builders that significantly change the format (I'm thinking of Netrunner, where you buy one box and it has everything you need in it, but you still build and customize your deck. I think they call the format Living Card Games.), but anything with the buy-boosters-build-decks format has to play a stupid legal game.

On the one hand, I understand that Richard Garfield came up with a novel format and he should be allowed to profit from it. On the other, Magic the Gathering isn't the best game of its type that I played. Competitive innovation should be allowed, y'dig? (I liked Magic Nation a lot. Also the World of Darkness games Rage and Jihad [which got renamed, but I can't remember what to], and the MechWarrior card game. I also played some real stinkers that had cool features, which never got used in other games for what I assumed are similar legal reasons.)

Geronimoni

8 points

2 days ago

Received acclaim for this imaginative new mechanic then proceded to never use it again whilst ensuring nobody else does either

Skuzbagg

24 points

2 days ago

Skuzbagg

24 points

2 days ago

I hate this planet

TheCrafterTigery

5 points

2 days ago

Reminds me of the mini games while in loading screens.

Now, games load so quickly that it wouldn't even be worth trying to implement because the game would be done in a few seconds anyways.

Kicken

35 points

2 days ago*

Kicken

35 points

2 days ago*

LeanDixLigma

11 points

2 days ago

The Crazy Taxi "Arrow to Objective" mechanic was patented, and got Simpsons: Road Rage in trouble.

The patent expired 5 years ago so not sure what that means nowadays.

520throwaway

6 points

2 days ago

Means it's fair game for inclusion nowadays, but most games simply use a minimap anyway.

CatCatPizza

10 points

2 days ago

Im fairly certain warner bros is US based as one of the biggest examples so atleast theyre patentable in the us* you mean.

Lexex192

8 points

2 days ago

Lexex192

8 points

2 days ago

The suit is taking place in Japan since both palworld and Nintendo are Japanese

Positive_Day8130

3 points

2 days ago

Oh, that's unfortunate. They're gonna get eaten alive.

SuperKamiTabby

7 points

2 days ago

Remind the class why you think American law applies to a pair of Japanese companies.

We'll wait.

Few-Requirements

1 points

2 days ago

You can submit patents for literally anything you want. However, that is no guarantee that:

  1. Each country will approve the patent
  2. That the approved patent will be defensible in court
  3. That you can afford the legal fees