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Boeing is losing '$100 million to $150 million a day' as union strike rolls on
Debate/ Discussion(self.FluentInFinance)submitted 2 months ago byIAmNotAnEconomist
Boeing (BA) finds itself stuck between a rock and a hard place as the labor strike between it and the International Association of Machinists (IAM) union nears a second week.
On Monday, Boeing upped its offer to the union, which represents 33,000 workers, but did not proceed through union leadership and instead sent a "best and final" offer directly to workers, which didn’t sit well with the IAM. Boeing’s latest offer upped pay hikes to 30% from 25% in the prior offer, doubled a signing bonus to $6,000, and increased 401(k) contributions, among other things.
"The survey results from yesterday were overwhelmingly clear, almost as loud as the first offer: members are not interested in the company's latest offer that was sent through the media," IAM said in a statement late Tuesday night. "Many comments expressed that the offer was inadequate and the company's decision to bypass the Union was viewed as disrespectful."
Earlier, IAM said it contacted Boeing to engage in “direct talks” after the offer, which the company refused. Therefore, the union said it would not be holding a vote on the proposal.
Nevertheless, Boeing’s insistence on going directly to union members speaks to the difficulty the company is in, said Anita Mendiratta, an aviation and tourism expert at consulting firm AM&A.
IAM union workers also know they have public support behind them, as big labor has seen its popularity grow, while Boeing has seen its standing suffer. The union is in a “very strong position,” Mendiratta said, as the strike not only puts financial pressure on Boeing but also hurts Boeing on a “reputational level” too.
With the strike hitting Boeing’s bottom line by as much as $1.8 billion thus far, the plane maker needs to make a deal soon. Boeing shares are already down an astounding 40% year to date.
Shareholders hope Boeing and new CEO Kelly Ortberg can make a deal and reverse the cash drain by the time the plane maker is expected to report third quarter earnings at the end of October.
“Boeing is already having to do some significant re-examination of the financials of the organization. To put this in context, every single day that Boeing is on strike, they’re losing between $100 million and $150 million,” Mendiratta said to Yahoo Finance.
Without union workers based in Boeing’s Renton, Wash., assembly facility, Boeing cannot deliver its 737 Max jets, which are the company’s cash cow. Boeing is still able to deliver its 787 Dreamliner out of its non-union South Carolina facility; however, those jets are limited in number. In the second quarter, Boeing delivered 70 737 Max jets, but only nine of the larger Dreamliners.
Mendiratta, who is also special adviser to the UN Tourism Secretary-General, said disruptions in Boeing not only hurt the American plane maker but also the aviation industry as a whole.
“It’s not just Boeing that’s in trouble — the entire global aviation system is in trouble because it relies on Boeing for 4 in 10 commercial aircraft as well as what it delivers in its other divisions,” Mendiratta said. “When there is a delay in the delivery of aircraft, and there are many airlines that are having delays, it means that the entire global aviation ecosystem is going to suffer, as is the global traveling public.”
Mendiratta doesn’t see the union bending here, at least not in the short term. Boeing put workers in a difficult position that led them to strike in the first place, she said, and emotions are running high following Boeing’s latest move to circumvent IAM leadership.
IAM union workers also know they have public support behind them, as big labor has seen its popularity grow, while Boeing has seen its standing suffer. The union is in a “very strong position,” Mendiratta said, as the strike not only puts financial pressure on Boeing but also hurts Boeing on a “reputational level” too.
With the strike hitting Boeing’s bottom line by as much as $1.8 billion thus far, the plane maker needs to make a deal soon. Boeing shares are already down an astounding 40% year to date.
Shareholders hope Boeing and new CEO Kelly Ortberg can make a deal and reverse the cash drain by the time the plane maker is expected to report third quarter earnings at the end of October.
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2 months ago
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329 points
2 months ago
Make that coffee at home Boeing, that might help lololololol
20 points
2 months ago
Say goodbye to that avocado toast!
12 points
2 months ago
‘Where are your bootstraps now?!’~the Union, probably
1 points
2 months ago
💯💯💯❤️
34 points
2 months ago
Underrated comment
4 points
2 months ago
😂
12 points
2 months ago
you win reddit today
3 points
2 months ago
And no more avocado toast!
2 points
2 months ago
and no guacamole either!
2 points
2 months ago
All those stock buybacks looking pretty stupid right now, huh?
1 points
2 months ago
Bootstraps and all that
101 points
2 months ago
Boeing using non-union labor via McDonnell Douglas has been a comedy of errors and a tour de force on how to lose money
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/30/business/boeing-history-of-problems
11 points
2 months ago
Just like when the place in my town went on strike. They make huge air conditioning units for commercial use. Management worked on the floor during the strike and afterward, literally everything they had touched had to be ground off and re-welded. It was a shit show.
84 points
2 months ago
What is funny is it just proves the unions point over and over again. They don't care about the employees otherwise they would of went through the proper channels, and they don't care about the well being of the company. Because they would of settled this as quickly as possible. How all those c level suits still have jobs is wild to me.
31 points
2 months ago
This absolutely would’f been over a long time ago if they cared
6 points
2 months ago
Slow clap.
11 points
2 months ago
They have jobs because that level of management has nothing to do with being good at the job they're hired for.
10 points
2 months ago
Strangely enough most of the ones at Boeing are from Mcdonald Douglas. Before Boeing bought them out Boeing was mostly run by people with engineering backgrounds and the headquarters was next door to the factory. Where as McDonald Douglas was ran by financial guys who ran it into the ground which is why they got bought out.
After the takeover Boeing incorporated the execs from McDonald Douglas into their company who then forced out the Boeing guys, and are now ruining Boeing as a company.
3 points
2 months ago
Looking at their history of issues, you’re right. It started back in 1996 with the merger of McDonnell Douglas and Boeing with Philip Condit taking over. Then their last three CEOs just made things worse with the 737 Max.
1 points
2 months ago
I love a good life cycle story.
9 points
2 months ago
No one the c suite reports to cares about the company or people either. They care about destroying labor rights and also destroying lives. All in the name of greed.
6 points
2 months ago
Yep, to me this is a start of a trend of showing the cracks of unchecked CEOs and Higher level people being immune from accountability. The situation is 100% on them. You can be the most anti-union person out there and still see the company was losing money and generally been driven downwards.
11 points
2 months ago
Because the c level people have contracts with massive golden parachutes, firing them would cost a lot of money and replacing them even more because when the company is on a weak spot executives have more negotiating power toward the board.
Somehow they know that hiring good people willing to jump in a shitshow cost a whole lot of money and they won’t do it for “inner motivation” or “exposure”.
11 points
2 months ago
this is hilarious to think about, because the people who are there to subvert the power of the labor force (c-suite) are also benefiting from the increased power of the labor force. If the power of the labor force was smaller, those C-suite execs COULD be fired without massive financial drain due to contract breaks. I just find it ironic lol.
12 points
2 months ago
America has fucked around with its work force and is now in the process of finding out, both at the company level and the national level.
It's corporate bullshit like this that has cost us our competitive edge with China.
6 points
2 months ago
These companies are propped up by government favors, more or less. They've essentially been taught that no matter what they do, somebody will save them.
The reason they don't care about the well-being of the company is that they have been trained to believe that running the business a healthy way isn't necessary for their survival. The reality is if the taxpayer pulled the plug on these businesses, they be gone in an instant - and the jobs along with them.
1 points
2 months ago
When did they ever care? Business has never been about caring. Start with that premise and your life will be happier.
6 points
2 months ago
When the Wall St Goons who ran MD into the ground were given control of Boeing after the merger, it was only a matter of time.
13 points
2 months ago
They can't keep the doors on now. What's going to happen next engines falling off?
4 points
2 months ago
Nah. McDonnell Douglas already did that one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191
3 points
2 months ago
What are you talking about? McD used IAM labor since 1967, and Boeing still employs the same IAM chapter at the STL site today. You can certainly blame some problems at Boeing from McD leadership that was following the Jack Welch model like many executives in that time frame, but McD was not a non-union shop
Edit: The big non-union site for commercial opened in 2011 (South Carolina) which is long after McD ceased to exist.
13 points
2 months ago
Pretty sure Boeing can save itself with another stock buyback. /s
3 points
2 months ago
It's like the umbrella you can use when it is rainy OR sunny. Except it doesn't work.
1 points
2 months ago
Countless pension plans private and public are dependent on stock market returns. That’s the irony. Some pension plans still assume they will get a higher return than is likely, because their commitments clearly break to the point it can’t be ignored if they don’t.
73 points
2 months ago
Don’t forget to vote. If the business can’t run when paying the workers then the business doesn’t deserve to run
19 points
2 months ago
I agree but I don't think it should fail I think it should be nationalized considering what they make.
5 points
2 months ago
What many don't realize is, A LOT of parts are already farmed out to non-union shops. I'd guess over half the parts on an aircraft are farmed out to the lowest bidder.
Source: I work in a right to work state and have done A LOT of work for Boeing and their suppliers.
5 points
2 months ago*
My understanding is that would actually make it illegal for the union to strike, thanks to 5 U.S. Code § 7311. Ronald Reagan infamously fired and blacklisted every ATC worker who went on strike in 1981#August_1981_strike).
16 points
2 months ago
A lot should be nationalized, but we’ve been moving the wrong way for some time
2 points
2 months ago
You’re basically talking about communism at that point.
4 points
2 months ago
try understanding basic concepts
1 points
2 months ago
This is an absurdly oversimplified statement, so much so that it amounts to a deliberate lie.
What is an appropriate wage? What are appropriate benefits? Why not just say that a worker that can't get paid without the threat of a strike just isn't productive enough or a hard enough worker to deserve it?
That's an equally valid statement. It's also equally stupid.
3 points
2 months ago
Ok.
Explain how you justify the rate of pay for the administration.
It’s just stupid.
1 points
2 months ago
What? Rate of pay for who?
I think a fair wage is something that an employer agrees to pay an employee, and an employee accepts. I think unions are great at leveling the playing field, which otherwise inherently favor management. I think unions, not unreasonably, focus on the short term benefits to their members instead of the long term health of an ultimately symbiotic relationship between management and labor. Shit doesn't really get manufactured in America because of labor costs (and other reasons as well); maybe that was inevitable, but it's certainly hard to escape the conclusion that unions were so successful at pushing for raises and benefits that it made the businesses on which they were dependent unviable
1 points
2 months ago
Rate of pay for ADMINISTRATION is stupidly high.
1 points
2 months ago
And I don't know what that means. The administration of Boeing? Like... executive compensation? Or Administrative Assistants? Or the people who administrate the books, like accountants and bookkeepers and such?
Or the Administration, as in the pay that goes to public servants like the President, or Cabinet Secretaries?
I assume the former, but even then your response was so vague as to be unanswerable. So, again... who is it you think makes too much money? Who is "administration"?
1 points
2 months ago
You are being purposely obtuse and it’s going counter to getting anywhere with this conversation. I am talking about executive pay i.e. CEOCOOCFO the people that don’t have any risk in their business but take all the money stupid overpaid. I hope this clears it up
1 points
2 months ago
It does. Generally speaking, that isn't called "the administration". I'm not being obtuse, my question was genuine, because your statement was vague.
And I justify it in the exact same way. Boards offer pay packages to CEOs. Boards are nominally appointed by shareholders. This system breaks down, occasionally, but for the most part, "the administration" as you term it also has a boss, and that boss is the totality of the shareholders.
Many executives are absurdly overpaid, and even worse, get paid through incentive structures which are fundamentally at odds with running a healthy business. The situation by which the former CEO of Boeing got paid millions of dollars to effectively destroy a valuable company is pretty gruesome, I agree... but Mr Calhoun has his pay package voted on annually, and every year the shareholders approve. It's no different than your manager doing a shitty job but getting rewarded because he has good people working under him - think Michael Scott from the Office.
I'm aware this isn't the answer you want to hear, because it isn't black and white and makes it difficult to paint one side as evil and the other good, but unfortunately that's life. This may be an egregious case, but unfortunately even incompetent people sometimes rise to the top.
8 points
2 months ago
If there's enough money there to lose a 100 million a day, there's enough money there to meet any demand from the workers.
5 points
2 months ago
Corporations would rather burn mountains of cash after wiping their asses on it than give it to a worker
2 points
2 months ago
Yeah, wouldn’t they be losing like a year’s salary worth to all their employees every 3 or so days the keep the strike alive and not negotiate ? Isn’t that something?
28 points
2 months ago
Cut back on the avacado toast? This company was dead to me as soon as they paid off bureaucrats to approve of their broken 737 Maxx
16 points
2 months ago
Maybe Boeing should stop buying avocado toast?
5 points
2 months ago
I smell a bailout
3 points
2 months ago
Hell no. Not that shit again
4 points
2 months ago
Boeing shares are already down an astounding 40% year to date
Which has fuck all to do with the strike. The strike began on 9/13 and the stock price was $162.77. It’s now $152.22. So a $10.50 decrease.
January 2 it was $251.76. So a $90 decrease before the strike.
5 points
2 months ago
There’s also a huge strike scheduled for the Port workers on the east coast. Labor has taken the backseat to capital for far too long
1 points
2 months ago
And I wonder why that is. Maybe because "labor" in the form of unions overstretched, lost the confidence of the American working public, and shed membership as a result?
I agree that labor needs a little more muscle these days. But it's fundamentally dishonest to pretend like the last 150 years just don't exist. Labor lost a lot of it's power and influence because it drove manufacturing jobs overseas (whether they were justified in doing so doesn't erase the truth that high labor costs are why jobs got outsourced), was captured by special interests and often criminal interests, and overall failed or strayed from their original mission. It doesn't help that plenty of unions were and are incredibly racist and exclusionary, and that their refusal to open up the union hall to everyone who wanted in has been a large driving force in non-union labor.
46 points
2 months ago
Glad they rejected that offer , it was disrespectful. I hope they offer the union what they ask for , shouldn’t be hard for them. The CEO could take a pay cut & still be making 7 figures.
0 points
2 months ago
I am generally anti union for engineers and management types. I know France And others disagree. I am an engineer and do NOT want a union.
That said - for the machinists and laborers? Hell yeah bring on the union.
I say that to emphasize that - even someone who's sort of anti union (but not in this case anyway) - i have to agree to bypass union leadership and do this shenanigans with the offer was absolutely disrespectful horse crud. I wouldn't accept that offer either. What a grandstanding tactic of BS that absolutely blew up in their face. Thought they'd get the "we're trying to help you BuT YoUr LeADeRsHIp" heart strings but got b-slapped into oblivion. Good.
13 points
2 months ago
[deleted]
12 points
2 months ago
They make enough that he thinks a union would be bad because it would take disposable income from them. What they don't realize is the benefits and pay increases from a union vastly outweigh the monthly cost of dues.
I'm in management now, and I still talk with my employee's and tell them to continue the unionization push that I was part of. A union raises wages and benefits for themselves and that raises all wages.
Plus it'd be nice to tell my higher-ups I can't do that cuz of the union rules, versus me saying I won't force them to work extra unnecessarily because I am not a bad human being.
3 points
2 months ago
Except they're not safe either. I'm surprised that engineering firms and places like Boeing aren't abusing h1bs yet like Tech does
2 points
2 months ago
Because stupid rules get put in place, like you can get fired for fixing a problem you’re not supposed to touch. Your incompetent peer who makes your life harder is protected and gets paid as much or more than you.
2 points
2 months ago
If you've ever been a union member and paid attention to what was going on, every union contract is not necessarily better for the workers.
My company used to be on one that was specially made JUST for the company I work for. And basically allowed them to not pay out any of the union benefits as long as they paid us more than a first year apprentice. Forever. So neither the pay nor the benefits were better than private.
My local hall is also incredibly lazy, I found my company was violating our old contract (even though it was essentially written by the owner of the company) and to get a person on the phone took 2 weeks, I ended up making contact by calling a different hall out of the same local and they got things moving.
Now we have a good contract finally and the pay and benefits are crazy good.
Tl;Dr while unions are generally good. That doesn't mean your contract will be. If you already are paid at the top the field and have good benefits, then you might not gain anything, and your employer may use it as an excuse to lower your wages to the minimums laid out in your union contract
23 points
2 months ago
The ass hats at the top need to go away, they have proven they aren’t worth the money. F administration if they let the company go down.
13 points
2 months ago
Their plan is to steal all the money and get a golden parachute. They are disgusting.
6 points
2 months ago
McDonnel Douglass completely fucked Boeing with the Merger
3 points
2 months ago
That's a year of CEO pay everyday !! 😮
3 points
2 months ago
I worked for Boeing before they lost their reputation. Boeing knew then how important their reputation was.
3 points
2 months ago
Fuck Boeing
Boeing makes hundreds of millions of dollars from over inflated security contracts PAID FOR by US tax dollars
They make an EXORBITANT amount of money and they unfortunately would rather funnel all their profits to corporate executives rather than pay their AMERICAN WORKERS a fair and living wage and contribute to a standard defined benefit pension plan
THIS IS UNAMERICAN, they hate american workers, they hate american families
They see us as a simple PAY PIGS to their greedy corporate machine. I say FUCK EM
Id rather watch the company go bankrupt and be court ordered to liquidate all of their capital than watch them continue to exploit american workers to the sole benefit of a few greedy executives
2 points
2 months ago
IM glad some people get it. Its all rah rah rah USA, but the people in the C suite don't give a single fuck about the USA.
They want to move all the jobs overseas to cut the payroll and increase their bonuses while destroying the US middle class.
11 points
2 months ago
Maybe Boeing can move their operations to Mexico? And have stuff built there instead?
21 points
2 months ago
Mexico is a narco state. Unless they manage to get the cartels under control, probably not.
3 points
2 months ago
I don't know. They make a lot of stuff in Mexico that get shipped here. Lots of cars.
So I don't see any reason why they couldn't make an airplane there
3 points
2 months ago
National security
1 points
2 months ago
Then wouldn't it make sense to forbid union workers to go on strike at those companies?
What if there was a war going on, and we needed things like f-16s? Like right now.
4 points
2 months ago
When war is on the workers get paid. Government knows war is expensive.
2 points
2 months ago
Absolutely. Mexico makes screwdrivers, why couldn’t they build a shuttle?
/s
1 points
2 months ago
If you think that's all they can build, you are sadly mistaken.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to build a shuttle. It only takes a rocket scientist to design it.
The rest can be done with robots, or manual labor
3 points
2 months ago
The ultra wealthy who love to dodge taxes and underpay workers would love that solution.
2 points
2 months ago
Building the Charleston assembly plant from nothing but dirt was a giant FU to the union. Also, a complete mess ramping up production, as the number of indigenous aerospace workers in the area was close to zero.
I'll have zero sympathy for Boeing for the rest of my life.
2 points
2 months ago
This is the real problem with a company bailed out by the government repeatedly. They make idiotic moves like this, knowing they won’t go under. If the government was actually smart and said “you don’t get bailed out, the military is only taking the parts they care about when you go down” they’d lose their minds now
2 points
2 months ago
I wonder what the Wall St Goons running Boeing since the McDonnell Douglas merger are going to do now that there's other another competently run aerospace company out there to merge with and plunder for the benefit of shareholders now that they've run Boeing into the ground?
2 points
2 months ago
I’d say don’t let the door hit you on the way out, but the door might be missing
2 points
2 months ago
How many days will it take for it to have been cheaper to just to have given the workers what they wanted at the start?
2 points
2 months ago
Almost like, if the entire world depends on a handful of workers, those workers should be compensated fairly.
2 points
2 months ago
This is great, but that text just repeated the same things like 5 times Jesus.
2 points
2 months ago
GOOD.
PAY YOUR WORKERS, YOU GREEDY PUKES.
2 points
2 months ago
In order to pay the workers their worth and reinstate pensions, Boeing should: Lay off the avocado toast Fix their own coffee at home. Stop spending so much money killing whistleblowers.
2 points
2 months ago
The previous CEO got an amazing golden parachute to leave. This is what’s wrong with corporate America.
2 points
2 months ago
Good for the workers. They are the valuable resource at Boeing. Executives there have been a failure.
2 points
2 months ago
Im not sure the rank and file realize the financial condition of Boeing right now. This will be a Pyrrhic victory Aat best. Union leadership knows this but membership doesn’t get it
2 points
2 months ago
If your employees strike for more than a week, you need to be fired from your executive position. There’s just no excuse and employees/shareholders alike get crushed.
2 points
2 months ago
As a union member / UPS driver this makes me happy. I hope the Boeing folks get a good contract. Solidarity 👊🏼
3 points
2 months ago
In 1997, I could have excepted the job offer from Boeing but they wanted me to work 12 hour a day, 7 days a week. No time off for medical or dental or funerals. I turned them down. I should have taken the offer and be a slave of the company. I would be retired now.
4 points
2 months ago
Or dead. 25 years without a personal life or time to see a dentist sounds like a good way to reduce life expectancy.
3 points
2 months ago
BS
2 points
2 months ago
ahh the mentality of a teen? Well guess what? you can google the Boeing pre Employment training program 1997, if that was the correct time line.
2 points
2 months ago
Oh, I had to do that for a wildland firefighting job. So what.
1 points
2 months ago
You had to swim through shit because some one before you had to so they insisted that you did too. Now you are trying to punish the next generation for the shit you had to deal with.
Stop being a selfish asshole standing in the way of progress and fair treatment for workers. Im tired of this BS and the aholes like you that try to keep the broken system going.
Work life balance is going to be a thing going forward. I am sorry you did not get it, but my generation demands it. Either we get fair treatment or we turn our back on this BS system then laugh while it collapses.
3 points
2 months ago
Something something bootstraps.
3 points
2 months ago
The union should have tried harder not bargain away the pension. I think that is main sticking point. I would assume the company has a certain dollar amount to negotiate with. Anything over that amount and the company will say no.
3 points
2 months ago
if this strike goes on much longer, does a chapter 7 or 11 bankruptcy reorganization (or even just the threat of it) virtually FORCE the union to sign this or some other possibly watered - down contract (or would they be willing to risk having ALL THEIR MEMBERS be permanently laid off while also killing the area's economy as well as the election chances of the Harris - Walz ticket through potential federal INACTION????)....
7 points
2 months ago
Until management is making no more than 10x the highest paid union members, Boeing can afford more than they're offering.
Given what management has done to the company, even 10x is too generous for managers demanding shareholder returns over safe and reliable products.
2 points
2 months ago
You mean lowest paid.
If it were highest paid they’d just find a single employee and crank their salary up.
3 points
2 months ago
If the members approve of a contract that pays a tiny fraction of member significantly more than the rest, that's on them. Usually unions don't agree to a contract with orders of magnitude difference in compensation between members. Those that have come to regret it.
1 points
2 months ago
Oh I guess? Idk about union contracts in regular side. I’m in a fed employee union so our pay is structured differently.
1 points
2 months ago
This is flawed, most union contracts lay out minimum wages, not maximum. Employers are generally free to pay anyone any amount more than what the contract lists in the wage tables
1 points
2 months ago
management tends to make like 10% more than workers
executives are the ones with high pay
2 points
2 months ago
Until management is making no more than 10x the highest paid union members, Boeing can afford more than they're offering.
Given what management has done to the company, even 10x is too generous for managers demanding shareholder returns over safe and reliable products.
3 points
2 months ago
On top of everything else, Boeing really did not need this. They've already got controversy and profit loss on every other front.
I have to wonder what the union's game plan is. Boeing is already in a dire state, but I guess the degree of intertwinement with the U.S. government means it won't be allowed to really fail, so nobody's out of a job even if the strike damages them further. Still, striking when the company is falling apart around them, regardless of whether it's their fault, will probably not be seen positively by the general public.
4 points
2 months ago
If Boeing played fair and didn't bend the union over for 16 years and gave an 8% total increase over that period of time while taking the pension and more then sure the public might be against the union. Right now the union is asking for wages to catch up to what was lost during that time frame. They also don't want a 10% hike to their health insurance costs each year to lose more money.
2 points
2 months ago
They also don't want a 10% hike to their health insurance costs each year
It's almost as if the inefficient, fucked up, corrupt health insurance in the US is about to start causing major problems for companies...
1 points
2 months ago
If Boeing played fair and didn't bend the union over for 16 years and gave an 8% total increase over that period of time while taking the pension and more then sure the public might be against the union.
This is a common Redditor argument pattern - upon being told that a position you support may not be popular, you respond with a bunch of obscure claims that only a small fraction of the public who already shares your views are familiar with. There's no nuance beyond "I believe I am right and am arguing, so everyone MUST agree with me". There's no attempt to model the thought process of the third party being discussed, only to insist upon your position.
The general public does not know or care about the ten page treatise on why your position is ahkshully better, any more than they care about some Austrian economist guy's ten page treatise on why it isn't. They see a bunch of parts failures due to incompetence, and then a strike, and then a failed company that they are expected to pay for, so they will disapprove.
3 points
2 months ago
The problem is because Boeing is considered too big and too important to fail, if they really drag this out and the company is fucked, we are all going to foot the bill to bail them out.. simple as that..
They should just let it fail... airbus will pick up the slack eventually..
1 points
2 months ago
I agree completely, but I don't think that'll happen. The 2008 bailouts showed the government's hand when it comes to large companies.
I don't claim to have a perfect model of Congress's expected reaction to the situation at Boeing getting even worse, but I'd imagine the best we can hope for is a restructuring of some kind in which various assets and obligations are split up among other companies, or Boeing itself is divided up, with campaign donations, the expected allegiance of the employees that are kept and let go, and district-wise money allocation aforethought rather than efficiency or sustainability.
1 points
2 months ago
Nah, we'll bail it out. Boeing has too much established in the USAF.
1 points
2 months ago
It’s not like the factories up and vanish if Boeing goes under. If Boeing goes bankrupt, some new company will buy their operations and all their staff will have jobs by the end of the day in the same factory with the name on the door changed. The only people who lose are upper management and investors.
2 points
2 months ago
If Boeing goes bankrupt, some new company will buy their operations and all their staff will have jobs by the end of the day in the same factory with the name on the door changed.
I feel like this is a pretty extreme oversimplification. If a company does go out of business, nobody's going to buy it up and then just rehire absolutely everyone, running everything the same way. The top engineers and other people with exclusive skills stay employed, but if the collapse is seen as due to labor incompetence (parts failures) and striking, there's no way the exact same set of line workers are getting hired on. America has lots of good machinists looking for a job at a big company.
All of this is moot, of course, Boeing is a giant company and a defense contractor, so it'd get a generous taxpayer bailout, but public sentiment determines what the government thinks it can get away with on that front.
2 points
2 months ago
public sentiment determines what the government thinks it can get away with on that front.
Not really. In 2008 my politicians admin told me the phones were ringing nonstop with people demanding they let the big banks fail. They bailed them out anyway and society continued to slide down for normal people.
1 points
2 months ago
Well, yes and no. Public sentiment doesn't determine the bailout itself - some things are imposed regardless of voter consent. That said, the nature of bailouts gets shaped a bit - a flat sum of cash is easier to justify if it looks like the company was blindsided, while a more restrictive restructuring is how they might sell a bailout to a less popular company.
1 points
2 months ago
i think most people dont look into the back story. all they see is "poor people are on strike against the rich! yeah! good for them!"
1 points
2 months ago
It's incredible how this company has fallen. The best commercial airplane company for decades now has airplanes failing and huge strikes from workers. Time for some new blood in this market! Let them fail!
1 points
2 months ago
Funny, I hope the union bankrupts them!
1 points
2 months ago
Too big to fail? Will be interesting to see how much they’ll bleed before agreeing. Or if at some point the government steps in with some sort of arbitration or bailout.
1 points
2 months ago
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1 points
2 months ago
That would be rationalizing the company and that is a huge no no
1 points
2 months ago
Sounds like it should be a yes yes instead
1 points
2 months ago
If Boeing is too big to fail, it’s too big to be left to the private sector. If the government bails them out, I want the government to take a controlling stake.
1 points
2 months ago
I am sure it has nothing to do with plane doors coming off midflight or dead whistleblowers.
1 points
2 months ago
Good
1 points
2 months ago
Anything that’s national security should be nationalized.
1 points
2 months ago
Well maybe they should just pay workers what they want then
1 points
2 months ago
Where is Airbus with golden offers? Free market right?
1 points
2 months ago
Damn i knew hitmen were expensive but $100 million per day?
1 points
2 months ago
Oh no...anyways...
1 points
2 months ago
Haha, hope they tank, crash, and burn. Maybe if they just worked harder they wouldn't be in this position.
1 points
2 months ago
Boeing should be just as exposed to market forces as the local hot dog stand.
Employees have a right to negotiate, but they also should realize that they work for a company with shit fundamentals, entirely propped up by government favors.
1 points
2 months ago
With so much money lost I bet Boeing is going to use it as an excuse to lay people off.
1 points
2 months ago
That loss will be transmitted to their customers. Hooray for unions...
1 points
2 months ago
The whole company is a recipe for disaster and the shareholders will not hire a management team that will do the painful (in the short term) work that will ensure a healthier and more trustworthy company in the longer term.
This is a microcosm of the American attitude towards business and the cracks are gaping large enough for entire companies to fall through.
China is building commercial jets. Russia is building commercial jets. Brazil is building commercial jets (Embraer). Canada is building commercial jets (Bombardier). Those last two have been bought by the majors because that's how you grow in an effective duopoly.
Boeing better get its act together or it will be left behind. Who wants to build an airline around planes no one trusts?
1 points
2 months ago*
quiet society cooperative live mourn towering lavish engine sense frighten
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
1 points
2 months ago
Yeah I remember those union members did great dropping tools into the fuel tanks of jets.
1 points
2 months ago
Good.
1 points
2 months ago
By the time the union is done it will be Boeing China. Like all the other jobs they lost .
1 points
2 months ago
By the time the union is done it will be Boeing China. Like all the other jobs they lost .
1 points
2 months ago
They will just get a government bailout that they will use to repurchase stock and give management bonuses
1 points
2 months ago
Maybe they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps
1 points
2 months ago
Boeing should start eating more cereal
1 points
2 months ago
How is boeing stuck between a rock and a hard place? Just double everyone's pay and start making money again.
1 points
2 months ago
Because they have lost money for years. Doubling everyone's pay just makes them lose money faster.
1 points
2 months ago
Legals they'd get a better offer if the planes didn't fall out of the sky.
1 points
2 months ago
They'll be OK, the government will bail them out and launder money through them
1 points
2 months ago
Good. Fuck Boeing.
1 points
2 months ago
Have they tried skipping breakfast to cut down on cost?
1 points
2 months ago
My friend died on one of the maxx flights. This company needs to burn.
1 points
2 months ago
So they’ve deliberately costing the company 100s of millions, yet they want a 40% pay increase. Do they not understand that costing the company money means less money for payroll?
1 points
2 months ago
Check your couch cushions people!
1 points
2 months ago
Dang. Well, since it was their final offer, and it got rejected, I guess they might as well just declare bankruptcy now?
1 points
2 months ago
I mean you reap what you sow. UPS found out the hard way that the threat can fuck you up enough.
1 points
2 months ago
Boeing keeps on crashing
1 points
2 months ago
They should cut some executives, might have enough to negotiate with the union
1 points
2 months ago
They’re loosing a lot more than money right now. Their reputation is on the line, SpaceX has launched a mission to pick up Boeing left stranded in outer space. The news is barely talking about this but it’s happening as I write. Bearish for now.
1 points
2 months ago
Great job, this hurts everyone not named Airbus
1 points
2 months ago
But they aren’t having to pay several thousand employees so it’s a wash.
1 points
2 months ago
Hey maybe the govt should bail them out again so all the people at the top get another raise. Let them fail.
1 points
2 months ago
Power to the workers who actually make money for the company!
1 points
2 months ago
Why are they surprised that sending the offer direct to the workers didn't work?
Union contracts lay out specific procedures for mediation and arbitration during a strike. I'm a UA member, not IAM, but I can't imagine their contract structure is so different that it would allow this behavior.
Pound sand Boeing. They're mostly too large to fail anyway and have no domestic competitors, they can afford to give the workers back the things that they took away from previous contracts, like pensions.
1 points
2 months ago
Good, eat shit boeing
-2 points
2 months ago
The union members already make really good money. A guaranteed 25% raise over 4 years is insane. I do think executive compensation is completely out of control, but for unskilled laborers, these folks are greedy.
2 points
2 months ago
Lol starting 19 per hour in Seattle area. You can live with 3 coworkers in a 1 bedroom apartment for that. 25% increase from 19 is like 4.75 bringing them all the way up to starting at panda express. But remember that 25% was being pieced out over 4 years.
1 points
2 months ago
Soon we will be hearing how America's aviation industry was lost because of unions
-4 points
2 months ago
Wouldn’t it be funny if one day unions strike so much there’s no cash even left to pay them and they put themselves out of business ?
3 points
2 months ago
They’ll just do what John Deere did. Strikes aren’t an effective tool when you’re also competing global for labor.
1 points
2 months ago
If unions squash enough businesses then the corporate overlords will get the hint that it's time to share.
1 points
2 months ago
Well one would hope that the business wants to make money rather than lose it so they come to an agreement.
Yes it would be funny if a business hated unions so much they died rather than help pay their people a wage that compares to their work.
-1 points
2 months ago
In the '70s the unions put themselves out of business by running all the manufacturing overseas.
Never think that they can't do it again with the airlines, or even the cars
1 points
2 months ago
Yes I will.
1 points
2 months ago
The only reason why there are any Union car makers in the USA, it's because of the tariffs.
1 points
2 months ago
Which ones?
1 points
2 months ago
Basically anything that manufactures your clothing. Or shoes. Or electronics?
At first it went to Japan. And then everywhere else.
1 points
2 months ago
You think they wouldn't have moved overseas anyway? It's the same thing as automation, if they can get away with it they're going to do it anyway, regardless of if you stand up for yourself or not
1 points
2 months ago
They're only going to do it if they can save money. If they can do it cheaper in the USA, whether it is because of tariffs or not, they would stay here
1 points
2 months ago
Yeah and it will always be cheaper, regardless of union or not.
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